Ah yes, Mandrake, this has been argued to and fro for
-- oh, maybe 150 years. Likewise Ragnarok // Last
Judgement, and Chaining of Loki // Binding of Satan.
I'd say, IMO, there's enough cross-cultural evidence
for the principle that 'if yer wants yer magic yer
pays yer price' for it to be pretty certain that Odin
had to suffer *some* sort of torment to acquire the
runes. But the particular form of torture could well
be an imitation of the Crucifixion.
Jacqueline
--- Mandrake of Oxford <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Dear All
>
> Interesting post from which I learnt something.
> Although I'm not so
> surprised that there are christian/classical
> influences on European pagan
> thought - its another indication that its probably a
> mistake to draw too
> impervious a line between christianity and
> 'paganism'. For some neo-pagans
> its maybe a uncomfortable thing - there are lines
> Taliesin that some have
> dismissed as christian interpolations and i've heard
> that some 'neo-pagan'
> renderings have gone so far as to edit them out. My
> friend the writer Jan
> Fries has always taken a different, IMO more
> relatistic stance to these
> things. Do you think Odin on the World Tree is
> influenced by the accounts of
> the crucifixion??
>
>
> bb/93
>
> mogg
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello to all,
>
> On 7/10/06, jacqueline simpson
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Rudolf Simek's 'Dictionary of Northern Mythology'
> > (1984 German edition, 1993 Eng transl) mentione a
> book
> > by G.W.Weber 'Wyrd' (Bad Homburg, 1969). He writes
> on
> > p. 374: "Weber has been able to show that the
> > expression 'wyrd' (which glosses Latin 'fortuna')
> is
> > unlikely tohand down heathen-Germanic thought, but
> > rather a medieval view of the world based on late
> > Classical-Christian beliefs, and therefore ought
> not
> > to be brought as evidence for a belief in fatalism
> > among Germanic peoples."
>
> The obituary "Gerd Wolfgang Weber (1942–1998)"
> signed by Lars Lönnroth
> and appeared on alvíssmál 9 (1999), pp. 93-94
> (electronic edition
> here:
> http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~alvismal/9obitgww.pdf)
> had:
>
> ***
> [...]
> His doctoral dissertation, Wyrd: Studien zum
> Schicksalsbegriff der
> altenglischen und
> altnordischen Literatur (Bad Homburg 1969),
> supervised by Klaus von
> See, also reveals to
> some extent the influence of Turville-Petre, but it
> is at the same
> time an independent, learned,
> and far-reaching study in Germanic philology,
> dealing with the idea of
> fate in early West Ger-
> manic and Old Norse texts. Weber demonstrates that
> the concept of wyrd
> is not genuinely or
> exclusively Germanic, but rather is influenced by
> classical Roman and
> Christian thinking,
> transmitted to Anglo-Saxon writers through Latin
> texts such as De
> consolatione philosophiae
> by Boethius. The dissertation shows that Weber, even
> at the earliest
> stage of his career, was able to deal with a variety
> of Germanic and
> Latin sources and draw critical conclusions from
> many kinds of
> philological and literary evidence.
> [...]
> ***
>
> Best regards,
> Roberto
>
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