I think it's important to remember issues of generation, class and 
ethnicity. I was at a small gathering of educated Mexicans of the two 
genders we seem to be limiting ourselves to a couple of nights ago, 
all of whom were in their twenties through perhaps 50 (As usual I was 
the oldest person there). I floated this conversation topic. Both men 
and women thought that the idea of their female peers being passive 
in any gathering was pretty funny, which confirms what I've seen in 
college classrooms in Mexico. In my own environment Eastern European 
Jewish women of any age or class (except perhaps for the wealthy, 
where other rules seem to apply), Italians, anglophone and hispanic 
West Indians (I haven't known enough francophone WIs to generalize), 
"American" Black women, all seem markedly short on passivity in 
public discussion. This was also true in my classes in New York 30 years ago.

I should note that like all New Yorkers I am hyper-aware of 
ethnicity--our environment is so mixed that to avoid 
misunderstandings we have to be. My ex-wife, who was from western 
North Carolina, was usually unaware of these differences, and it 
mystified her that New Yorkers were so quick to identify ethnicity. 
Where she came from, she used to joke, there were three kinds of 
people, Blacks, Southern, and Mountain.

Here's a totally counter-example. I stupidly allowed Carlos to throw 
a party at my house when he was 16. I offered to stick around to help 
out. He made it very plain that I should leave for the evening, 
because, as he said, "kids have parties at home so they can get drunk 
and stoned without adults around." He also assured me that I needn't worry.

When I got home at 2 am (as agreed) the boys were weaving so badly 
that the beer was sloshing out of the bottles,and the floor was a 
pasty mess. The windows were open and the music blasting at 
actionable levels (good thing my neighbors really liked me). The look 
of horror on my face must have been pretty remarkable: the girls (and 
only the girls) stopped what they were doing and, unbidden, began 
cleaning up the bottles, wiping the floor and straightening-up the 
boys, who watched them drunkenly but didn't lift a finger.

These klids all went to an upper middle class prep school. I knew a 
lot of the families: the mothers were successfuul business women, 
advertizing execs, doctors, lawyers, college profs,shrinks, and even 
a judge, and their daughters were destined for similar careers. But 
when push came to shove the daughters reverted to stereotypical roles.

This was 20 years ago. I have no idea if that would still happen.

What I have noticed is that the friendship circles of kids then and 
now in that place and class is far more mixed than it was when I was 
their age, and the erotic isn't the glue that holds it together--it 
seems genuinely friendship and genuinely egalitarian, and there's an 
ease between them that was absent when I was 16. Which bodes well for 
the future, at least in that place and class.

I'm not sure what it means for a woman to be a 'man.' I assume you're 
being facetious.

Mark

At 12:35 PM 4/3/2006, you wrote:
>You may be right, Alison. In fact, probably are. Certainly, in the 
>Humanities (as they're called), where there are more women than men 
>enrolled, that perceived protection probably inheres.
>
>Of course, the 'culture' of business & politics itself may guarantee 
>that the women who do make it there are actually 'men,' as in 
>Thatcher, or Rice.
>
>In her fine White Queen trilogy, Gwyneth Jones had a 'war between 
>men & women' happening in the first volume, but of course there were 
>both males & females in both camps.....
>
>Doug
>On 2-Apr-06, at 4:36 PM, Alison Croggon wrote:
>
>>Is it that the perceived
>>protection of the classroom allows women to be more articulate? Just
>>throwing this into the mix. I don't' see women being dominant in the news
>>media, in politics etc, and businesses are still run mostly by men.
>Douglas Barbour
>11655 - 72 Avenue NW
>Edmonton  Ab  T6G 0B9
>(780) 436 3320
>
>Even-
>ing
>will
>come
>
>They
>will
>sew
>the
>Blue
>Sail
>
>         Ian Hamilton Finlay