Dear all,
Final (?) comment on this strand and I'll not join in the "I did or didn't
get a report from Time Team" debate.
I'd like to add that with regard to the Ribble Estuary excavation featured
on TT and to which Peter refers we (MOD) did consult with the SMR, did
consult with English Nature (it's a SSSI) and did in our advice to the RAF
who issue the permits for excavation of military aircrash sites suggest the
following
(a) there was no good reason for the excavation, neither academic or
humanitarian and it shouldn't go ahead,
(b) if it does it needs a PD taking into account other non WWII
archaeological implications, and
(c) the abilities, technical standards, finds policies and PX funding of the
groups involved needs confirming.
The RAF response at the time was that as long as the evidence suggested that
the air crew either survived or were recovered and buried elsewhere (so no
human remains in-situ) they could not oppose the application as the 1986 act
is intended to preserve military-human remains, not the military-aircraft
remains. This is still open to some debate internally but as it currently
stands unless there are human remains still within the crash site, licences
may well be issued to any group applying and we (MOD) have no real power to
enforce any conditions/quality control. Inclusion of protection of wreck
sites in any new legislation may well be the best way forward to ensure
justified, high quality excavation with suitable PX.
We will via my colleague Richard Osgood still be consulting with HERS when
we do get requests and will feed this information into the RAF to take
account of when issuing licences
Niall
Niall Hammond
Senior Historic Buildings Advisor
Environment Support Team
Defence Estates
Gough Road
Catterick Garrison Tel 01748 875058
North Yorkshire Mobile 07734854668
DL9 3EJ Facsimile 01748 875097
DE Environmental Support Team
Integrating the Environment with Defence Needs
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-----Original Message-----
From: David Evans [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 31 January 2006 17:20
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites
I think wreck sites are intended to be in.
Thank You
David Evans
Historic Environment Record Officer
Planning & Environment
South Gloucestershire Council
Civic Centre
High Street
Kingswood
South Gloucestershire
BS15 9TR
01454 863649
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini
Sent: 31 January 2006 16:20
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites
Not a bad idea - anything else to go in? Perhaps Wreck sites?
best wishes
Nick Boldrini
Historic Environment Record Officer
Heritage Section
Countryside Service
North Yorkshire County Council
Direct Dial (01609) 532331
Conserving North Yorkshire's heritage - encouraging sustainable access
www.northyorks.gov.uk/archaeology
This email is personal. It is not authorised by or sent on behalf of North
Yorkshire County Council, however, the Council has the right and does
inspect emails sent from and to its computer system. This email is the sole
responsibility of the sender
>>> [log in to unmask] 31/01/2006 12:54:02 >>>
Isn't the obvious solution to have crash sites added to the new national
register?
Peter consider yourself lucky that you have had some kind of a report from
TT!
Thank You
David Evans
Historic Environment Record Officer
Planning & Environment
South Gloucestershire Council
Civic Centre
High Street
Kingswood
South Gloucestershire
BS15 9TR
01454 863649
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Iles, Peter
Sent: 31 January 2006 10:44
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites
You may be interested to know that I did struggle with TT to get a
satisfactory PD and made a lot of comments on at least three drafts, but
that it all seemed to go out the window as soon as the filming was done.
I can't comment on the actual standard of work on site as I was
(deliberately?) not invited and discouraged from 'just visiting' but the
evidence of the film did fill me with despair. I will be writing to TT to
try and get some of the more obvious problems rectified in the report, but
won't be holding my breath waiting!
Pete Iles
-----Original Message-----
From: SCHOFIELD, John [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 31 January 2006 09:21
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and
WW2
ai rfield buildings)
Peter
I agree. The crash sites guidance note says more or less this, and in
particular emphasises the need for a formal PD and states that the work
should satisfy the IFA's Code of Conduct (to which the British Aviation
Archaeology Council are signed up). It sounds like we are getting there, but
it would be good if Time Team could be seen to conform to the standards and
set an example - their excavation after all post-dated the crash sites
guidance, which was publicly available on the Web. I wonder if they saw it?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Iles, Peter
Sent: 30 January 2006 18:10
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and
WW2
ai rfield buildings)
I would agree that something needs to be done - I received this morning the
report of the pointless Time Team "The bombers in the Marsh"
(broadcast spring 2005) where Phil Harding cut up some of the remains with
an angle grinder and, after the programme was finished, more remains were
dragged out with mechanical excavators. I suppose I should be grateful to
get anything at all, but to call the activity 'archaeology' seemed
disingenuous and a
17
month delay in producing a small report hasn't help convince me that the
current controls are adequate (or that TT can produce anything worthwhile).
The conclusions reached were that, surprise surprise, the crash
investigation at the time was correct - and it would appear from the report
that this could have been decided by documentary work.
I would suggest as a start that any works called 'excavation' or
'archaeology' should be required to come up with a formal project design to
satisfy the local curator that it will be done to IFA or equivalent
standards. That the work is monitored closely (paid for by the 'digging
team') and that if it is not done to the standards set in the PD then the
team involved will never be given permission to excavate again.
Peter D Iles
Specialist Advisor (Archaeology)
Lancashire County Council Environment Directorate PO Box 9 Guild House Cross
Street Preston Lancashire
PR1 8RD
t. 01772 531550
f. 01772 533423
e. [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
-----Original Message-----
From: SCHOFIELD, John [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 30 January 2006 17:07
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and
WW2
airfield buildings)
All very good news - most (but not all) of which I was aware of. It may be
timely to start thinking about an updated version of the crash sites
guidance note, some aspects of which have now clearly been overtaken by the
developments you and Robin refer to. Would this be helpful, do members
think?
J
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hammond, Niall
Sent: 30 January 2006 16:08
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and WW2 airfield
buildings)
John,
Robin has been very helpful in supplying details of known crash sites to the
MOD so that we in the Historic Environment Team can advise the RAF
appropriately.
This is particularly important as all such sites are protected under the
1986 PMRA (Protection of Military Remains Act), which requires any
individual or group who are going to excavate, move or damage a crash site
to gain prior approval from the RAF. This was primarily intended to
safeguard what are in many cases war graves from interference. We now have
an internal system of consultation and advice within MOD whereby we advise
the RAF on any applications they receive and are gradually ensuring that in
addition to the protection of the human remains still contained within many
crash sites, that we safeguard the cultural heritage element also, which in
addition to the plane itself, may involve multi-period deposits depending on
where the crash occurred.
As
a part of this we would normally include an HER consultation.
If any list members have concerns over specific proposed excavations of
military air crash sites, please get in touch.
Niall
Niall Hammond
Senior Historic Buildings Advisor
Environment Support Team
Defence Estates
Gough Road
Catterick Garrison Tel 01748 875058
North Yorkshire Mobile 07734854668
DL9 3EJ Facsimile 01748 875097
DE Environmental Support Team
Integrating the Environment with Defence Needs
-----Original Message-----
From: SCHOFIELD, John [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 30 January 2006 15:54
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and
WW2
airfield buildings)
Dear Robin
I don't know about others, but I'm increasingly being asked for locational
details for specific crash sites. It's useful therefore to know that NMR is
becoming a major source for such information. Are you the main point of
contact for information about these sites in future?
Also, it would be useful to know:
1 To what extent the 1,970 records represent a comprehensive list of those
crash sites from WWII for which an accurate location is known. Are the
remainder less well documented for example?
2 What were the key sources used to reach the current figure, and
3 Are there are any key sources that haven't yet been trawled?
4 Assuming from 'current' that you're not yet finished, what is the
timescale for completion?
It would be useful I think to advertise the fact that a fifth of these sites
have been recorded on the NMR. Does the Air Historical Branch know for
example, and RAF Museum Hendon? A word with the EH Press Office perhaps?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of PAGE, Robin
Sent: 30 January 2006 14:52
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and WW2 airfield
buildings)
Dear List members
Further to my recent posting forwarded to the list about military aviation
data in the National Monuments Record, I have to own up to a statistical
error in my aside about the military aircraft crash sites we have recorded.
The actual current figure should have been over 1,970 records not 19,700
which was a typographical error of mine. The current total thus represents
about a fifth of the estimated total of some 10,000 aircraft lost over this
country in WWII. I hope list members will accept my apologies for that
mistake.
Kind regards
Robin Page
Robin Page
English Heritage
Projects Team Officer
Datasets Development
Heritage Data Management
National Monuments Record Centre
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