Sorry I can't help you, Dave..

At 06:32 PM 1/2/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>One did re-read Moby Dick a few months ago, Mark. As for that list:
>
> >Check out Williams,
> > Olson, Dorn, Reznikoff, Oppen, Rukeyser, Rexroth--
>
>Well, WCW can be humorous at times. As for the rest: Olson is famous for
>being a world-class bore, Oppen I would like to like but unfortunately his
>writing is that flat, Reznikoff is ego gone mad, Rukseyer can be a good
>writer at times, although not that good, as for Ed Dorn and Kenneth Rexroth
>I haven't words in my vocabulary to opine.
>
>Best
>
>Dave
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 6:12 PM
>Subject: Re: Happy New Year!
>
>
> > I suggest a rereading of Moby Dick, or for that matter anything of
> > Melville. Throw in Huck Finn. Dripping with irony all. And as to the more
> > recent, you're looking, I suspect, at the wrong bunch. Check out Williams,
> > Olson, Dorn, Reznikoff, Oppen, Rukeyser, Rexroth--no need to go on. It's
> > also hard to see how Ashberry's playfulness derives from a myth of
>innocence.
> >
> > The great stuff produced here has almost always been subversive to the
> > culture, which tends to see even the mildest of irony as treason.
> >
> > As to Collins, he's at best a court jester. Pay him no mind.
> >
> > The useful part of my message was probably less the part you quote than
>the
> > modification that followed.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > At 05:40 PM 1/2/2006 +0000, you wrote:
> > > > Dave: This rather oversimplifies a lot of history. For instance,
>dropping
> > > > the bomb was simply barbaric, and also unnecessary, as the Japanese
>were
> > > > very close to a conditional surrender.
> > >
> > >Yup, Mark, I agree. The dropping of the bomb(s) was barbaric, it was
> > >indiscriminate mass-murder, the UK wasn't guiltless of the same - Bomber
> > >Harris and all that. What pisses me off is the US cultural myth of
> > >innocence. The result is a poetry of sickening narcissism crossed with
> > >facetitiousness, you can see that in poets as distinct as John Ashbery
>and
> > >Billy Collins, you can trace it back to what undermines Moby Dick as a
> > >novel.
> > >
> > >I recall talking to an old guy who was in the Normandy landings - his
>joke
> > >went like this:
> > >
> > >When a Bitish plane came over the Germans all ducked.
> > >
> > >When a German plane came over the British ducked.
> > >
> > >When an American plane came over everybody ducked.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Best
> > >
> > >Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
> > >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 3:58 AM
> > >Subject: Re: Happy New Year!
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dave: This rather oversimplifies a lot of history. For instance,
>dropping
> > > > the bomb was simply barbaric, and also unnecessary, as the Japanese
>were
> > > > very close to a conditional surrender. The intelligence reports that
> > > > indicated that the Japanese would fight to the last man woman and
>child
> > > > rather than surrender were based partly on what happened in Okinawa.
>They
> > > > probably grossly exaggerated, but seemed, unblike recent events, to
>have
> > > > been believed by those in power. They led the military folks to
>predict a
> > > > million US casualties in the invasion of the islands, which is why the
> > >bomb
> > > > seemed appropriate. Even had this been true the bomb shouldn't have
>been
> > > > dropped.
> > > >
> > > > As to the dismemberment of the British Empire as motive, it wouldn't
>have
> > > > been a bad idea, but it's news to me. Some documentation?
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 12:42 AM 1/2/2006 +0000, you wrote:
> > > > >Ken wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >But do not, please, ask me where I believe
> > > > > > the bombing of a country in time of a war they started ranks on
>the
> > > > > > list.  Please don't.
> > > > >
> > > > >Ok - history: the Rooselvelt government had three aims for the war
>was
> > >about
> > > > >to become: they were, the destruction of the German Empire, likewise
>the
> > > > >Japanese, and also the dismemberment of the British Empire as it was
> > > > >considered a restraint on trade.
> > > > >
> > > > >WW2 was soaked in hypocritical moralising to cover that reality, none
>the
> > > > >Powers (including Britain) cared a fuck about what was happening to
>the
> > > > >Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, homos etc in the concentration camps, they
>could
> > >have
> > > > >easily bombed the train-lines, but after the Brit conscripts found
>the
> > >poor
> > > > >sods in Aushcwitz nobody could keep quiet about it.
> > > > >
> > > > >The reality of WW2 was to establish US economic supremacy, (only
>three
> > > > >countries made money out of the war - Sweden, Switzerland and Uncle
>Sam)
> > >the
> > > > >whole of the history of the latter 20th century can be see in that
>light.
> > > > >
> > > > >As for atomic bombs, you lot dropped them, nobody else has, nor does
>any
> > > > >other nation hold the world in ransom.
> > > > >
> > > > > From poodle-land
> > > > >
> > > > >Best
> > > > >
> > > > >Dave
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Kenneth Wolman" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 11:58 PM
> > > > >Subject: Re: Happy New Year!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > David Bircumshaw wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >My post did not say 'anti-american' it was 'anti-americans'. I
>wrote
> > >that
> > > > > > >with a purpose as I am very well aware of the loadedness the
>phrase
> > > > > > >'anti-american' can bear.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I feel as though I am trying to read the white space on a page. In
> > >fact
> > > > > > I can do that better than I can intuit the essential difference
> > >between
> > > > > > the two terms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now, without being nasty, I do suspect you are
> > > > > > >living in a dreamworld, one in which the Japanese aren't pissed
>off
> > >with
> > > > >the
> > > > > > >USA for dropping two atomic bombs on them, remember,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I beg your pardon.  I'm not even going to do the "my ancestors
>were in
> > > > > > Poland during slavery" routine, i.e., "Gee, I was only 18 months
>old
> > > > > > when my country bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki."  Wasted breath.
> > >Someone
> > > > > > bent on the religious doctrine of Collective Guilt will pound on
>me
> > >'til
> > > > > > I'm pulp.  I don't know what the Japanese feel...as though there
>were
> > >a
> > > > > > unitary body called THE Japanese.  I've never asked a Japanese who
>was
> > > > > > aware and of age in August 1945 what he or she feels now...I never
>met
> > > > > > one.  I don't know what their children and grandchildren might
>feel.
> > >I
> > > > > > don't know what illnesses they contracted and died of.  But I must
> > >tell
> > > > > > you that this is among the most reprehensible comments I have seen
> > >since
> > > > > > 1984, when I first began reading Internet postings.  You also
>picked
> > >an
> > > > > > astoundingly poor target.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > yours is the only
> > > > > > >nation to have done that to anyone, I know, all to well, about my
>own
> > > > > > >nation's guilt, the only thing I can say in self-defence was that
> > >neither
> > > > >I
> > > > > > >nor my antecedents took any part in it, but the myth, and the
> > > > >accompanying
> > > > > > >sentimentality, of American (which reads USA) innocence is more
>than
> > >I
> > > > >can
> > > > > > >bear.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Right, and we also slaughtered Indians, enslaved Black people, and
> > > > > > locked up our resident Japanese-Americans in concentration camps.
>You
> > > > > > left My Lai off the list.  But do not, please, ask me where I
>believe
> > > > > > the bombing of a country in time of a war they started ranks on
>the
> > > > > > list.  Please don't.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ken
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------------------
> > > > > > Kenneth Wolman www.kenwolman.com kenwolman.blogspot.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 39. Not observing the imperfections of others, preserving silence
>and
> > >a
> > > > >continual communion with God will eradicate great imperfections from
>the
> > > > > > soul and make it the possessor of great virtues.
> > > > > > --St. John of the Cross, Maxims on Love (The Minor Works)