Just catching up after a period away - I think the sense in
which idealist was used (Paul M? or Carl H?) was not to mean
having ideals, but rather in the philosophical sense of giving
priority to the realm of ideas/thoughts/concepts/mentation - as
opposed to the realist emphasis on what's tangible. To pick
up on some of the comments on realism (David F), the point
I'd make is that critical realism, while priveliging the material
understands that that reality is a) not just physical but also
socially and historically constructed and constituted, and b)
that impossible to apprehend reliably. This position therefore
takes the best of phenomenology and structuralism (two of
the roots of so called postmodernism) using these insights to
achieve an improved realism - one that is not besed on the
priority of the language of (newtonian versions of) physical
science, or for that matter on the uncritical acceptance of
appearances and common sense. I hope that squares the
circle (a bit). Anyway I take this to be an example of
dialectical thinking - taking two positions and using their
contradiction to construct a third more adequate one.
(Or maybe you think that this is just Engels dancing on a pin
head - an image I rather like).
Mark
On 20 Dec 2005 at 15:12, Jeffrey, Grant wrote:
>
> Speaking, I hope,as one of the 'ordinary people' (!) who is struggling
> to think through some of these questions, I was first prompted to join
> in discussion on the list because of some fascinating discussion about
> theory. I have enjoyed it so far, and learned a lot (and followed up
> some of the suggested reading! :-). Surely there isa place for this
> kind of debate on the list, alongside all our other concerns!
>
> A few (but perhaps not very festive!) points I would like to make:
>
> On one hand, post-modern thinkers are often accused of being
> nihilistic, and on the other (in recent postings), idealistic. This
> seems potentially contradictory to me. In fact, it might be argued
> that it is the modernist / enlightenment project that is idealistic,
> with the emphasis on 'progress', historical determinism, unification,
> grand theories, perfectibility of communication, centralised
> government, authority (legitimation), scientific truths and
> certaintiesetc. The post modern projects can be characterised as
> iconoclastic rather than idealistic, operating according to an
> 'uncertainty principle' rather than a 'reality principle' (i.e. not an
> 'unreality principle').
>
> Alot of the arguments made on both sides of the debates on the list
> seem quite profound to me and have made me think - it matters what
> kind of position we take with regard to materialism for example (is
> materialism "a desire for wealth and material possessions with little
> interest in ethical or spiritual matters" - the driver ofcapitalism
> and globalisation?). Are there any mental health issues not related to
> poverty or capitalism generally, is oppression always essentially
> economic? What constitutes a community, and don't communities always
> entail power struggles? The ways we answer these (poorly framed,
> sorry!) questions might affect our practice. It doesn't feel like
> counting angels dancing on the head of a pin to me - it feels like a
> challenge. I've really enjoyed the postings.
>
> Not many of us really earn a living critiquing theory,and in fact this
> thread is evolving under a subject heading of 'escaping the critique',
> it is the whole process of 'taking sides' and getting stuck in
> entrenched positions that we need to challenge.
>
> Baudrillard, amusingly argues that those interested in the post modern
> project of interfering with ('problematising') a clear division
> between good and evil ('a taboo we must never cross') get portrayed as
> 'impostors and scoundrels'*....and goes on with his usual blag that it
> isnot always obvious what constitutes 'good' - we argue about it....
>
> I might not be competent to rise to Carl's challenge for joint
> activity, but I would enjoy trying- would the Layard proposals make a
> rich and practical topic to look at? (Bauman would also be good!).
>
> Best wishes, Grant
>
>
>
>
> *Baudrillard2005'TheIntelligenceofEvil'p.23
>
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Smail
> Sent: 20 December 2005 11:34 To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Escaping the Critique
>
> Dear All
>
> If this is coming down to a debate between 'modernists' and
> 'postmodernists' (which looks like a re-run of the age-old
> realist/idealist debate), do we need to sharpen up the issues a
> little? As someone firmly in the social-materialist camp, I would find
> it helpful if the postmodernists (as represented by David F. here)
> could be a bit more specific than simply recite their credo, bemoan
> their discomfort and perplexity, and excommunicate clinical
> psychologists, and others, who don't agree with them. Aphorisms like
> 'you cannot dismantle the master's house using the master's tools',
> however famous, are not exactly persuasive (my bet is the master's got
> the best tools around). The'postmodernist' side of the debate seems to
> be taking place at a level of abstraction that actually makes critique
> of any kind impossible (which comes back to Paul M's angels on
> pinheads). Exactly in what way, for instance, are psychologists who
> work with individuals to develop a critique of the conditions of their
> distress transgressing ideological purity?
>
> I actually do find it rather hard not to believe in an independently
> existing world (more round than flat, probably), and a case could be
> (and often enough has been) made for postmodernist, idealist
> challenges to such a view, far from escaping dominant discourse,
> actually providing the ideal philosophical basis for late consumer
> capitalism.
>
> David
>
>
>
>
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Fryer
> Sent: 19 December 2005 21:43 To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Escaping the Critique
>
> Dear Carl (and others),
>
> You wrote Paul D has produced a piece of dialogue that seems to
> clarify the relative positions of community and critical psychologists
> at Manchester Metropolitan University. Paul M has produced a statement
> of a social-realist position in plain English. How is it going for
> people?
>
> Personally I dont find either of the accounts attributed to the two
> Pauls persuasive.
>
> To take the social realist position in plain English position first:
> there are so many claims here with whichI disagree that I hardly know
> where to start (or finish).
>
> I certainly, myself, do not feel comfortable simply believing what
> seems pretty obvious, because I believe what seems pretty obvious to
> most people is what is framed in terms of the dominant discourses and
> dominant discourses tend to dominate because they serve the interests
> of the status quo. It was at one time 'pretty obvious' that the world
> was flat and at anotherthat mental illness was caused by 'possession'.
> I amnot happyaccepting as defaultthat the only credible ontological
> assumptions are realist ones i.e. that there is a real world which
> exists independently of me and that all I can do is describe it in
> multiple ways. I certainly dont agree that all honest accounts
> will converge on the same conclusions (if I did I would be obliged to
> position those who produce different accounts as dishonest). I am very
> uncomfortable with over simple conceptions of the environment and
> believethat to think of discourse as just language is to miss the
> many points of a vast and important body of work. I do not accept that
> everything can be explained using the familiar concepts and words of
> dominant discourses: as feminists have famously said, you cannot
> dismantle the master's house using the master's tools. I find
> theapparent antipathy, frequently articulated on this list,towards
> ways of thinking which areother than modernist perplexing. We can
> after all best appreciate the limitations and failings of modernism if
> we take up a standpoint outside it.
>
> You say Some of us earn a living by theraping individuals, others by
> critiquing theories. I certainly do not see myself or other critical
> community psychologists as making a living by critiquing theories, at
> least that is not my intention, though I believe that in spheres where
> theories are powerfully oppressivecritiquing theory is also
> importantand valuable. To me the point of critical community
> psychology is to intervene to reduce / prevent distress in a
> progressive i.e. socially just fashion. Iconcludedlong ago that
> clinical psychology was not only not part of an effective solution but
> was also often part of the problem and am looking for other ways.
>
> I do not see beingcriticalas a new or different enterprise from
> being a community psychologist but as a dimension of what I do and how
> I do it. If I am doing research I aspire to it being conceptually
> coherent, methodologically sophisticated, practically viable,
> ethically sound etc. but I also require it to ideologically
> progressive (i.e. to survive critical scrutiny). If I am engaged in
> practice I aspire to it being pragmatically feasible, practically
> effective, culturally safe etc but also ideologically progressive
> (i.e. capable of withstanding critical scrutiny). (In fact the above
> is over simplified because I strive for both at once as praxis). I
> only find it essentialto distinguish critical community psychology
> from acritical (ideologically reactionary) community psychologybecause
> so much community psychology (and clinical psychology) is acritical in
> my view.
>
> Whilst I certainly believe that inequality, poverty and (un)employment
> are massively powerful and destructive of many peoples health and
> well being, I believe thatthe social material is inordinatelycomplex
> and thatunemployment and poverty arediscursively as well asmaterially
> constituted (constructed and maintained).Environmental context is
> important but cruciallyincludes discursive as well as crude
> materialist context.
>
> As for the suggestion that the other Paul (D) clarified the relative
> positions of community and critical psychologists, I also disagree.
> Lets leave aside, for here, the particular question of MMU, which
> personally I think was ducked. The important distinction is surely not
> between critical and community psychology since community psychology
> can be critical or acritical but between critical and a critical
> psychology (whether community or clinical or developmental or whatever
> . .) and is about far more than diversity of positions and
> comprehensibility of language. There are major ideological and
> political differences.
>
> Carl, as you know, I think these issues are far to important to
> foreclose discussion and debate in premature consensus. I have been
> trying to take a back seat on the list after posting too much but your
> provocation tempted me back!
>
> David
>
>
>
>
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Harris
> Carl (RQ3) BCH Sent: Mon 19/12/2005 16:31 To:
> [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK]
> Escaping the Critique
>
> Dear Paul, Sarah and everyone
>
> Can I just add my thanks to Sarah's for your contribution, Paul.
> Incidentally, if that was "tuppenyworth" it seemed like value for
> money.
>
> I agree with your points that the dominant influence in people's lives
> is their social-material existence. I agree that there is only so much
> that can be reframed, no matter how expertly or imaginatively.
>
> I can hear the points that Jan made recently,
>
> "many people committed to community psychology in the UK are steeped
> in an NHS and mental health upbringing that influences our every move
> and utterance. Although we may be critical about mental health
> systems, we are somewhat restricted in this focus and we are clearly
> not as critical or imaginative as we could be about theoretical
> assumptions and methods of working."
>
> echoing, as I wonder whether our perspectives are a product of our own
> material circumstances. Some of us earn a living by theraping
> individuals, others by critiquing theories.
>
> Can this debate be a productive one? Can it become a piece of
> community psychology itself?
>
> Paul D has produced a piece of dialogue that seems to clarify the
> relative positions of community and critical psychologists at
> Manchester Metropolitan University. Paul M has produced a statement of
> a social-realist position in plain English.
>
> How is it going for people?
>
> Cheers
>
> Carl
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarah Ghani [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 19 December 2005 14:39
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Escaping the Critique
>
>
> Dear Paul
>
> I have been trying to follow much of the recent discussions, but
> sometimes feel very ignorant that at times the language loses me. I am
> sure I miss some excellent points due to this, which can leave me
> feeling frustrated.
>
> Many thanks for this contribution, which I fully understood (and
> strongly agree!). Thanks in particular for your use of "relatively
> ordinary words" and your comment that theories need to be accessible.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Sarah
>
> >>> [log in to unmask] 19/12/2005 13:47:50 >>>
> Dear Carl and everyone,
>
> I feel a little hesitant about putting my tuppenyworth in (again) at
> this stage, mainly because of my probably not being fully up to speed
> with the debate (the result of general time pressures which at the
> moment don't allow me as much space to read and contribute to the
> Community Psych Net as I would like).
>
> Anyway, while i've enjoyed some of the discussions and humour(!)
> around post modernism versus realism and the role of the community /
> clinical / counselling psychologist, i have to say that much of this
> discussion has left me feeling pretty cold - to the point where I
> think that I might be coming down with a mild case of alienation.
>
> I do wonder how a.) "ordinary people" - i.e. non psychologists; and
> b.) historians one hundred years from now (if the human race still
> exists) would look on these communications, which in some respects
> seem to resemble previous disputes about angels and pin heads. At the
> risk of perhaps being seen as naive or simplistic - it seems pretty
> obvious to me that we live in a (real) social-material world, and
> while there might be multiple ways of describing the latter, the ones
> that are most relevant from a clinical / community perspective are
> those accounts that pay due regard to inequalities of social power and
> to their (largely none-negotiable) embodied consequences. Although
> there is certainly lots to think about and debate here, experience
> nevertheless seems to suggest that an honest account of clinical /
> community work will always converge around these themes. In other
> words, when it comes to trying to help distressed people, there are
> only a limited number of useful stories that we can tell about the
> world, and only a limited number of strategies that we / they can use
> to try to improve their "psychological" lot - starting of course with
> the environment that causes the problems in the first place. By
> itself, language or "discourse" probably has little or no power to
> shift people's position in relation to the troublesome situations with
> which they have been struggling - unless, that is, a shared language /
> understanding helps them to get together with others in positive ways
> (but then again, they would still need the material and social
> resources to be able to do this).
>
> All of this can be said in relatively ordinary words, and I would
> imagine that i'm far from unique in saying that i've learned more
> about the relationship between social power and personal distress from
> conversations with mental health service users - and indeed with my
> working class grandmother,when she was alive - than from a shelf load
> of psychology or for that matter "critical psychology" textbooks. None
> of this is to cock a snook at the need to develop theories that
> reflect our experiences and those of the people that we work with,
> it's just to say (however clumsily) that such theories need to be
> accessible and to be genuinely grounded in those experiences, even
> where this all too often points to the limitations in what we can hope
> to achieve as clinicians or community psychologists.
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
> Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Harris Carl (RQ3)
> BCH Sent: 15 December 2005 11:10 To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Escaping the Critique
>
>
> It is very compelling, Wendy.
>
> I couldn't stop myself from replying to you.
>
> And you're right it does feel like a community.
>
> Cheers
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Franks, Wendy - Clinical Psychologist
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 14 December 2005 13:19
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Escaping the Critique
>
>
> Thanks Carl and Annie for your comments on this.
>
> I absolutely agree that this list, and this community, and our
> conferences are of critical importance in making working life feel
> sustainable and in helping us to reflect on our practice. I hope my
> comments did not read as a dismissal of the importance of this
> community and our activities on this list. I am just very aware that
> it is very compelling, and I have to be careful not to get caught up
> in it at the expense of the other work I have to do.
>
> I'm grateful to those who commit to this community, and keep it alive,
> and I want to participate as much as I can, in whatever ways that I
> can. Just that the time available for me to do so is limited if I'm
> going to put energy into other things too.
>
> Wendy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harris Carl (RQ3) BCH [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 14 December 2005 10:44
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Escaping the Critique
>
>
> Hi everybody
>
> Good points, Wendy.
>
> There are times when I wonder what the people to whom I deliver a
> service would make of my participation in this list. "What are they
> all on about?", they might ask. This makes me feel a bit selfish and
> ashamed.
>
> There are also times when I think "I wonder if everybody else (on the
> list) thinks I do nothing else all day but read and reply to emails".
> "Well, he's clearly not very busy", they might say. This makes me feel
> a bit lazy.
>
> BUT
>
> I have to agree with Annie's points about the impact of participation
> in the list on my thinking, both in reminding me how "brain-washed" I
> have been by the process of psychological education and training and,
> raising my awareness (ie highlighting my ignorance) of some of the
> more theoretical stuff that could make me look at things differently.
> Not many of our workplaces offer that kind of opportunity.
>
> To some extent it's the interaction of our differences and our
> understandings that has this effect on me (eg flat-earthers and
> post-modernists; academics and technocrats; men and women; lurkers and
> typists). Seeing the debates played out in front of us, with the
> option to stick our oar in if we are "invited" to, is, I think, quite
> good.
>
> The act of contributing has been, in itself, a commitment. Not always
> easily done but usually rewarding.
>
> Cheers
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Annie Mitchell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 13 December 2005 15:28
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Escaping the Critique
>
> thanks Wendy - refreshing. I look forward to hearing what has happened
> with your research . It's certainly challenging to to get a balance
> between critical reflection and action, and I've enjoyed the prospect
> laid out before me in the discussion of the various books and ideas we
> might immerse ourselves in. And from where I sit it is also
> challenging too to raise my head over the barrage of NHS and
> University bureacracy to get to either reflection or action. that's
> where this list can be a blessed relief. When it isn't wildy
> perpetuating male- female and other dichotomies. One prevailing
> feeling i have had over the last week or two of debate here is a
> powerful urge to rejoin my old feminist networks. But i so want to do
> that same stuff that i used to do in women's contexts with men joining
> in too now - widening the diversity - if only it were possible. I'm
> not sure it is.
>
>
> Annie
>
>
> --On 13 December 2005 14:48 +0000 "Franks, Wendy - Clinical
> Psychologist" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I've been away for a long weekend, trying to get a bit of a break
> > from the overwhelmed feeling arising from seemingly relentless work
> > pressures. I've had another dozen or so messages from my network
> > administrator to say that my inbox is overflowing! All I could do
> > was laugh about the number of emails from this list in my inbox, and
> > how impossible it seemed to make a dent in the mounting pile of
> > unread messages in the archive.
> >
> > And I am sorry that I just do not have time to read them all,
> > because I'm sure that I would find a great deal in them that would
> > be interesting and enlightening.
> >
> > I'm glad that there is such a lot of energy going into the debates
> > and discussions going on at the moment, and I'm sorry that I've been
> > so silent.
> >
> > Outside of work, I also don't prioritise reading this list, although
> > I do try to catch up from time to time when work is particularly
> > hectic. I need to strike a balance that will keep me going in the
> > long term, and that involves making time for relationships, family,
> > and sanity-sustaining, non-work activities. Work has been pushing at
> > the edges of this balance for a while, with lots of committments and
> > preparation creeping into non-work time. So I'm pulling it back at
> > the moment.
> >
> > I can't possibly refer back to what has been written over the last
> > few weeks, as I haven't read it all. At a glance, much of the debate
> > seems to be going on at a level above my head, and certainly beyond
> > my existing knowledge. My education in psychology and earlier has
> > been highly de-politicised, and so much of the work referred to is
> > unfamiliar. This doesn't encourage me to get involved let alone
> > formulate something coherent to write in response. I think the
> > character and style of the debate can also, at times, make me less
> > inclined to get involved. It does seem to mirror the existing
> > hierarchies of power that I have experienced during my life,
> > although I recognise that there have been attempts to reflect on
> > this and try to counter-balance it.
> >
> > I've found the debate fairly intellectual and it competes with other
> > more worldly demands at work. I think the actual time it would take
> > out of my working day to get involved, would be more productively
> > engaged in other activities. And I suspect that if I asked my
> > employer (the NHS) the reply would support that position. After all,
> > there is a high expectation on doing, in a tangible sense in my
> > working life. And to a certain extent, that's one of the aspects of
> > this job that appeals to me. There is time for thinking and
> > debating, but there is other stuff to do. At the moment, for me, the
> > 'other stuff' seems more pressing. I know that the pursuit of
> > knowledge is also important, and guides action. I'm not dismissing
> > that at all. Just, how much, or how intellectual, or how far do you
> > have to take it to do something practical and useful to people?
> >
> > An example comes from the research some colleagues and I have been
> > working on. The research itself (about the mental health needs of
> > refugees, asylum seekers and migrant workers in our local area)
> > could have been taken to a much higher level, could have been much
> > more theoretically and intellectually robust. So, I could have gone
> > for that option, and I could have asked the new assistant
> > psychologist in the post to focus on that. However, it's probably
> > still publishable somewhere (when we get time to write it up), if
> > not in a high status academic journal. And from the research, we
> > have generated, with the local communities, a huge number of
> > practical ideas regarding what is going to make a difference to
> > them, in their lives now. So that is what the assistant psychologist
> > is (very competently, and inspirationally, I might add!) doing at
> > the moment. So, I think while there's some space in my working life
> > for debate, it can't dominate over the practical activities that it
> > is supposed to inform. I want to help to put the scarce resource we
> > have here in the NHS in Great Yarmouth to the best use.
> >
> > So, I'm aware this is another email that is hastily composed, and
> > may not all hang together terribly well....
> >
> > Essentially, I don't want to escape the critique, I just want it to
> > be manageable within the time I have, so I guess I'm selective about
> > how much I get involved in it.
> >
> > To come back to the conference...
> >
> > I'll write about that in the 'on the subject of conferences' thread.
> >
> > Wendy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Annie Mitchell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: 08 December 2005 14:41
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Escaping the Critique
> >
> >
> > Hi Rebekah,
> >
> > yes; it's so easy to default to the prevailing power loaded ways of
> > doing/saying things - at least we are trying here, and our trying
> > shows how hard it is.
> >
> > Re the conference - I hope we have supported/ encouraged Wendy
> > enough so far. We all share responsibility to encourage and welcome
> > new different people into our network . I remember when I asked a
> > community psych colleague for advice re organising the Exeter
> > conference she wisely said - no matter how hard you try you will get
> > it wrong for some. We felt heartened and liberated by that and
> > decided pretty much to trust ourselves . Hope Wendy and colleagues
> > do too.
> >
> > Annie
> >
> > PS I bet David appreciates having you as mentor...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --On 08 December 2005 14:00 +0000 Rebekah Pratt
> > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Annie,
> >>
> >> I agree with your point about the dangers of matching 'clever
> >> experts' to newcomers would be problematic. For me, the main issue
> >> with this would be the potential for blatant reproduction of the
> >> type of social mediated communications we have been seeing on the
> >> list itself. Whilst the exchanges have been increasingly
> >> interesting, there have been times I have felt I'm reading messages
> >> from a lot of men about a lot of other men (the second lot
> >> generally being more historic and even cleverer experts). I think
> >> the dangers of mentoring would be we reinforce this public
> >> representation of dominant group dominance in community psychology.
> >>
> >> In particular Annie's email refers to the revelation of mentoring
> >> and support by David's email. Whilst you didn't say it explicitly
> >> Annie (and please note I find your emails overwhelmingly supportive
> >> and encouraging), I read your email to saying David acts as an off
> >> list mentor. The only thing that is actually revealed by this is
> >> how we assume who the expert is in the exchanges, how we decide who
> >> is the mentored and who is the mentor. The answer just happens to
> >> not actually be that straightforward in this particular instance,
> >> but it made a clear point about how easy it is to understand who
> >> our clever experts are through conventions of gender, status, age
> >> etc. I think this conveniently served to highlight the dangers of
> >> going down a mentor model path.
> >>
> >> As a group we could do with paying careful attention to how this
> >> dominance becomes replicated on our list discussions, reflected in
> >> our assumptions about our colleagues (both those who speak up on
> >> the list and those who do not) at our conferences and in the
> >> authoring of our conceptual frameworks.
> >>
> >> Just to connect back to where we started from, I would like to see
> >> a careful commitment to continuing to represent the diversity of
> >> our network at the next conference.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >> Rebekah
> >>
> >> Ps By the way .. I'm finding mentoring David both challenging and
> >> rewarding..
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Annie
> >> Mitchell Sent: 08 December 2005 10:45 To:
> >> [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK]
> >> Escaping the Critique
> >>
> >> Hi Diane,
> >>
> >> Mutual mentoring/ induction is a nice idea. Though I'd want it not
> >> to simply be a process whereby the "clever experts" induct the
> >> newcomers. We all have differing expertises and identities we bring
> >> to our exchanges and it would be good to share those around, value
> >> them and encourage one another to make inputs from our differing
> >> expertises..For example your experience of the barriers you have
> >> overcome should be just as valuable to this list as others'
> >> experiences of grappling with philosophical issues.
> >>
> >> I believe we need to bring our differing perspectives together in
> >> as equal way as we can - to make sense and take action.
> >>
> >> I'm sure some sort of mentoring in any case goes on behind the
> >> scenes of this list - for example as was revealed through David F's
> >> inadvertent posting of background communication; my comments about
> >> the linked conversations we had at the southwest network meetings,
> >> individual emails that go back and forth between colleagues who
> >> have relationships outside of this list etc. But the value of a
> >> mentor approach could be that we make connections across our usual
> >> sub-groups.
> >>
> >> Anyway, I'd be up for a bit of partnering / mentoring someone whose
> >> experiences were complementary to mine: so here are some of my
> >> identities. I'm white, female, middle aged, long-term single parent
> >> but now living in a shared family situation, from a north england
> >> comprehensive school background, clinical psychologist working at
> >> present in psychology department in an old style university and
> >> also in a general hospital offering clinical/community service,
> >> with an interest in participatory research. I've occasionally used
> >> mental health and complementary health services to support me in
> >> managing my distress. And I'd like to do more about ecological
> >> issues. And i like singing and taking part in drama.
> >>
> >> BUT I'm aware that this list has recently taken up more of my/ our
> >> time than it usually does - as it has been so fascinating. We'd
> >> have to be realistic about how much time we could devote to this.
> >>
> >>
> >> Annie
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --On 08 December 2005 10:54 +0800 Diane Costello
> >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you David for clarifying the cultural gap I was
> >>> experiencing. As a relative novice to ontological discourse and
> >>> having overcome the barriers posed by poverty, single parenting,
> >>> ethnic minority status, sexism, disability [just to name a few] --
> >>> these discussions have awaken me to the rules implicit in claiming
> >>> a voice.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I have been advantaged by these discussions and while I feel
> >>> overwhelmed and perhaps a little intimidated it has been an
> >>> intoxicating
> >> experience.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> May I be bold enough to suggest as an initiation process - whereby
> >>> those who want an easier transition to the field of CP- be
> >>> assigned a mentor on the list to encourage greater contributions
> >>> from those who may feel excluded for whatever reason.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sincere cheers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Diane
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Diane Costello Assoc MAPS
> >>>
> >>> Lecturer
> >>>
> >>> School of Behavioural Science
> >>>
> >>> College of Arts & Sciences
> >>>
> >>> The University of Notre Dame Australia
> >>>
> >>> 19 Mouat Street (PO Box 1225)
> >>>
> >>> Fremantle, Western Australia 6959
> >>>
> >>> Tel: +61 8 9433 0867
> >>>
> >>> Fax: +61 8 9433 0210
> >>>
> >>> Email: [log in to unmask]
> >>>
> >>> Internet: www.nd.edu.au
> >>>
> >>> CRICOS code: 01032F
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Fryer
> >>> Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2005 8:33 AM To:
> >>> [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK]
> >>> Escaping the Critique
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dear All,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Here are a few personal reflections on recent interesting material
> >>> posted to the list.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I have found that Paul and Mike importantly use humour to draw my
> >>> attention back to reflection what I want of the list in relation
> >>> to community psychology (COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list
> >>> for community psychology in the UK)?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I do want a forum in which we can read and write about and debate
> >>> critical community psychology (CCP for short) at a sophisticated
> >>> level but that is not enough for me - I also want a forum in which
> >>> CCP is practiced, that in which our actions are in line with the
> >>> values and assumptions of CCP.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For me it is central to CCP that it is committed to challenging
> >>> and contesting excluding, depowering and disabling practices and
> >>> unjust and damaging hierarchies. It is also central to CCP that it
> >>> is committed to challenging and contesting individualism and
> >>> psychologism. I am not, and do not want to be interpreted as,
> >>> imputing disreputable intentions or motives to individual list
> >>> members in offering critical refection on what it seems to me to
> >>> be happening in our list discussion. However my concern is that
> >>> we, collectively, are reproducing and maintaining within the list
> >>> oppressive power relations outside the list. That is not
> >>> surprising of course. When we participate in the list, those of us
> >>> who 'enjoy' them cannot individually cast off the privileges and
> >>> powers that come with being male in a sexist society, affluent in
> >>> a materially grossly unequal society, dominant ethnic group
> >>> members in a racist society, disproportionately enabled in a
> >>> disablist society, educationally successful in a meritocratic
> >>> society etc. Nevertheless, whatever the good intentions and
> >>> motives and difficulty of doing otherwise, I fear that our
> >>> discussion (including my own inputs) sometimes excludes, depowers
> >>> and disables others on the list and recreates external socially
> >> structured hierarchies of power and powerless in the list.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On the other hand I think that some of the issues we need to
> >>> address to become effective require concepts which ignore or
> >>> redraw conceptual and ideological boundaries so I am also grateful
> >>> for inputs by Grant, Mark and others. Difficulties in
> >>> understanding, in my view, are caused not only by the nature of
> >>> what one is trying to understand but also by what one brings with
> >>> one with which to do the understanding. Immersion in positivist
> >>> realist (per)versions of science militates against coming to
> >>> understand other notions of what counts as knowledge and other
> >>> assumptions about 'what there is'? I think that those believing in
> >>> 'modernism' confronted with post-modernism are in some ways in a
> >>> comparable position to those who believed the earth was flat
> >>> confronted with those who argued the world was round(ish). Our
> >>> difficulties in understanding radical ideas are to some extent
> >>> because we have been educated not to be able to do so. Our
> >>> educational practices create ideological illiteracy?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So I do think we also need challenges to and support in discussion
> >>> about complex for-us, for-now-inaccessible issues using unfamiliar
> >>> terms and constructions. A challenge to us all on this community
> >>> psychology list, it seems to me, is how to do this without
> >>> excluding, depowering and disabling others on the list and
> >>> recreating and maintaining external hierarchies of power and
> >>> powerless in our list 'community'. Any ideas how?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> David
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of
> >>> Michael ridley-Dash Sent: Wed 07/12/2005 20:45 To:
> >>> [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK]
> >>> Escaping the Critique
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Coming from the Frankfurter school of thought I take Bockwurst's
> >>> 'The adapted transdimensional exploration of the inner discoursals
> >>> cavities' as the really seminal work. In it he argues that the
> >>> 'Sausage-world' or as he coins it 'the integral meat-encompassed
> >>> reality of being' is being infiltrated by the stodgy maize of
> >>> imperial capitalism. I find this work to be best enjoyed whilst
> >>> studying fluctuations in the housing market, perhaps accompanyed
> >>> by the sound of the late-great opulent marxist John Lennon's
> >>> 'Imagine' played on a Kazoo.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Yahoo! Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and
> >>> used cars online search now
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> ___________________________________
> >>>
> >>> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in
> >>> the UK. To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the
> >>> website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For
> >>> any problems or queries, contact the list moderator at
> >>> [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> The University of Stirling is a university established in Scotland
> >>> by charter at Stirling, FK9 4LA. Privileged/Confidential
> >>> Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Annie Mitchell
> >> Lecturer in Psychology,
> >> Clinical Director, Doctorate in Clinical and Community Psychology,
> >>
> >> School of Psychology,
> >> Washington Singer Building,
> >> University of Exeter,
> >> Exeter,
> >> EX4 4QG
> >>
> >> Phone 01392 264621 or
> >> Liz Mears, Programme Administrator 01392 403184
> >>
> >> ___________________________________
> >>
> >> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in
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> >> [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
> >>
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> >> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in
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> >> [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> >
> > Annie Mitchell
> > Lecturer in Psychology,
> > Clinical Director, Doctorate in Clinical and Community Psychology,
> >
> > School of Psychology,
> > Washington Singer Building,
> > University of Exeter,
> > Exeter,
> > EX4 4QG
> >
> > Phone 01392 264621 or
> > Liz Mears, Programme Administrator 01392 403184
> >
> > ___________________________________
> >
> > COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in
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> > [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> Annie Mitchell
> Lecturer in Psychology,
> Clinical Director, Doctorate in Clinical and Community Psychology,
>
> School of Psychology,
> Washington Singer Building,
> University of Exeter,
> Exeter,
> EX4 4QG
>
> Phone 01392 264621 or
> Liz Mears, Programme Administrator 01392 403184
>
> ___________________________________
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