JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for MCG Archives


MCG Archives

MCG Archives


MCG@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

MCG Home

MCG Home

MCG  2006

MCG 2006

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Nick Poole's speech to MCG Autumn meeting

From:

"Ottevanger, Jeremy" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Museums Computer Group <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:52:19 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (181 lines)

 
Dear Nick et al,

It's taken a while to respond to Nick's very thought-provoking (and
let's be honest, generally provocative) piece because as I went through
it I found I was annotating pretty much every paragraph. But there have
now been a couple of thoughtful replies and so there's even more to say.


There's plenty I agree with you on, Nick, not least the emphasis on
moving on from experimentation and getting on with understanding and
justifying the resources required and the benefits derived from our
outputs. I also think that sometimes you're being rather pessimistic
about what can be achieved and indeed what is achieved by projects big
and small. In your discussion, at least, sustainability seems to extend
as far as business models and "market-competitiveness". This obscures
the fact that we operate for different end-goals to others in the
markets in which we're presumably operating - our ultimate aim is public
good, not profit. And if it's hard to measure the full economic impact
of what we do (not only because it's tiny but because it's diffuse and
may be feeding back into our institutions in ways we aren't aware of)
it's still more difficult to measure public good. This is of course one
reason why it's attractive to try to put financial proxies in place for
success measures, but to focus on these and ignore the strategic aims
we're proxying is a mistake. 

There is a related issue in the fact that many of the expensive projects
that you criticise are not purely about building websites. Many are
firstly about digitisation and improving the standards of our records
(which I know you'll be fully behind!) and the pay-off comes in large
measure from these, not from the websites; and the pay-off for improved
documentation can take an awfully long time - it's not the sort of
investment that accountants would generally be that happy dealing with,
but it's normal for museums.

I must say that I'm rather with Bridget WRT audiences, too, although I
recognise the general sentiment: that in putting a lot of effort into
collections databases we're making quite strong assumptions about what
our audiences want. Now you'd be wise to be sceptical of my views, since
a lot of what I've done at MoL has involved getting collections online,
but it strikes me that (a) again, this has often gone hand in hand with
improving our collections database records and it would have been silly
to miss the opportunity do both at once, and (b) if an off-line museum
is not much of a museum without collections, likewise its online
extension. 

"Ask the majority of people about the information they want from a
museum and they are likely to want to know things like where it is, when
it's open, and whether there's somewhere for them to have a picnic with
the kids. So why is it that we have spent so much time and effort
delivering complex searchable databases of catalogue records?" 
It's a fair question, but (a) if our aims are limited to telling them
basic visitor information then we're pretty much done, at least most
museums are, so let's go home, eh? (b) they may come up with this
shopping list if asked what they want from a site, but in use things may
be different. They may come to the site for one thing then use our other
stuff too; or find our content being used or referred to elsewhere
(though this is vastly underexploited right now, which may be one reason
for investing in technological solutions, and why the SWTT is exciting);
or use us because they are required to do something, for example get
some material for a school project or lesson plan, and that's where they
end up. 

I think you have missed out a third broad category of stuff we make:
aside from building demonstrators and other standalone projects or just
doing stuff we like, we also build services that support real-world
activities and have therefore at least a logical justification, if not
an empirical one. Perhaps this is because that's not the sort of project
that gets centralised funding, which is understandably the focus of the
piece, but let's not forget that sites that complement exhibitions or
outreach or community projects run by the physical museum have got a
pretty strong business case and hopefully a synergy that helps get value
for money. 

"One of the most important lessons to learn from our previous experience
is that we should leave the cutting-edge to other, better-funded
industries that are better able to support fledgling solutions through
to maturity"
Sort of, but sometimes these give us quick cheap wins and let us to the
easy bit whilst others do the hard labour. What comes under the category
of cutting edge anyway? How established is Google Maps? Not very by most
standards - isn't it still a beta, like the rest of Google? So that
probably qualifies. But although we at MoL have experience of getting
maps on the web using more complex, in-house solutions (ESRI ArcIMS),
it's Google Maps we will probably use for a number of our future mapping
services online, and why not? It's easy, free, quick, no server load or
software licenses, and yes, there's a learning curve to do fancy stuff
but it's not beyond people who can find a little time - which may be
easier to find than the money for an ESRI suite and a set of map layers.
What else is "Web 2" and cutting edge? I'm not sure, really. Blogs,
wikis, folksonomies... they're collaborative, they're still a relatively
thin strand in the thinking of many web users, but they're not exactly
cutting edge. Only the last is tricky to implement, and that depends on
your aims and approach, but they're worth exploring and it's worth, as
Bridget points out, making use of the free stuff that's out there. The
shift of more and more services onto the web has led to all sorts of low
cost and low-barrier-to-entry spin-offs. This easy entry is one huge
advantage that folksonomies (as seen in the Steve project pictured in
your piece) possess over systems based on more complex data structures,
quite aside from the debates over who is better at cataloguing stuff for
a mixed audience.

I'm with the others in thinking that the Web 2.0 thing, irritating as it
is, will leave its mark long after the phrase dies out. Particular
technological solutions characteristic of this phase will surely pass,
and that may be more problematic for the longevity of the solutions we
build, but part of the problem of debate that surrounds W2.0 is the
conflation and confusion of changes to networks, power relations etc.
with technical trends.

"Unless we are able successfully to differentiate our offer on the basis
of quality and depth of service, we are always going to struggle to be
competitive in a world dominated by the aggregation of lots of bits of
information into single services."
This is a world we can participate in, not necessarily on the
aggregation side (although this may be a role fitting to your suggestion
#4) but on the content provision side. OK, content is uncool now, it's
all services services services in the commercial side of things - they
get suckers to make the content that fills up those services. But why
can't we be the suckers - especially if we can find out how to measure
our impact. Anyway, we already provide services that stand out. We have
the advantage of museum authority, of unique content, of physical venues
complemented by our online presence etc. And aggregating services aren't
the only game in town, nor will they ever be, although I believe that
some of what we should be doing in museums and that the sector could
work together on is feeding such services. 

You suggestion that we build capacity strikes a chord. I suspect that
this might be more about infrastructure than training. A radical
expansion of the hosting that MLA/24HM can provide to small museums,
with tools for managing museum-specific content would give a great
boost, provide network benefits, permit the development of a large body
of content in unified format and any number of fancy services under one
roof but many banners. A service for DOIs or PURLs. A registry for
museum IDs and a standard way of addressing key data. Collaboration
perhaps with a commercial partner to develop sector-specific search...
None of these are just my idea, some are yours, Nick, and I think that
building these sorts of services could help many museums leap a few
rungs of the ladder and would start to provide some standardisation. I'm
not sure that building a few big sites (your #4) is the key, though, but
there are some services that might suit that model. Generally I don't
think we need a few big destination sites, we need departure sites. 24HM
does this and is moving towards doing it even better, but although Chris
is right that there are some scenarios where it's advantageous to
dispense with institutional barriers, there are plenty of others where
those barriers have meaning, where they define and give character to the
collection and context to its contents. But certainly it makes sense to
design infrastructure and create content with the objective of deploying
it in multiple contexts.

And for your point 6, I'm a bit scared of this one. Perhaps it's a good
idea, although if you ask me it's good just to have museums online and
it would be a shame to scare any off by getting all heavy on the quality
of what they've put up. But then again if there was a great central CMS
available that any size museum could build a site with, we might not
even need to check up on them, and we'd have lots of that content
standardised and in one place already.

So thanks, Nick, for a very stimulating piece.

Cheers, Jeremy


Jeremy Ottevanger
Web Developer, Museum Systems Team
Museum of London Group
46 Eagle Wharf Road
London. N1 7ED
Tel: 020 7410 2207
Fax: 020 7600 1058
Email: [log in to unmask]
www.museumoflondon.org.uk

Visit Belonging: Voices of London's Refugees - a new thought-provoking free exhibition

Glamour, grandeur, sleaze, disease  - discover a great city in the making at the Museum of London   

**************************************************
For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk
**************************************************

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

May 2024
April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
2006
2005
2004
2003
2002
2001
2000
1999
1998


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager