Rowdy,
Good to see you the other day. I thought RT was great. he can fairly play, that man (not news, I know). I sent something to the mail list. Not sure if it made it. Here it is.
As you'll see, my speculations on the buying cigarettes issue were different from yours. You have some evidence, however!! The issue of the Asian shops is a very interesting one and one which tends to be avoided I think. I remember one man getting full of indignation at the duplicity of these abstinent Muslims (that wasn't what he called them) who had the gall to sell him vodka at all hours of the day and night, flagrantly disregarding the law, just because he asked them to.
Peter
Re Dear Frankie and Scottish alcohol attitudes.
Ron,
As one of the (usually quiet) Scots on the KBS list, I'll give my perspective on some of your questions.
- Children buying cigarettes. It would be very unusual in Scotland for a 9 year old to go to buy cigarettes in a shop. Maybe, at a push, in a small community where the shopkeeper knew the family, but even then, it would be culturally seen as unacceptable. Scotland has a ban in smoking in public places coming in in March and has followed the Republic of Ireland in taking a more robust stance on this than in England. Most smoking indicators are improving.
- Children in the company of intoxicated adults. You're right that this is regarded pretty casually. There remains a view that adults getting drunk are having a good time, and there's no taboo about children seeing drunk adults. A lot of Scottish comedians played drunks (Harry Lauder, Lex McLean, Billy Connolly.) This translates into an attitude that supports a process of adults "educating" children about alcohol, but not being expected to alter their own behaviour.
- Big beer glasses for women. This is interesting. In British pubs beers are served in pints (about 560ml) or half pints or in bottles, which are typically 330ml. Women drinking beer is not unusual at all, and many women will drink pints. This would be seen as part of a "don't you think I'm a soft girlie" sort of attitude, but usually wouldn't attract comment. Beer, which is usually bought in rounds does have a symbolic bonding function, much as it seems in the US.
- Mum and grandma drinking whisky. Firstly, Scotch whisky has no "e." Irish does. Should also say the word Scotch is only used for whisky. Otherwise the adjective is spelt Scots and pronounced accordingly. Women drinking spirits is not at all unusual, though vodka is more popular spirit among Scottish women. Having a drink because you feel you need one after a hard day is a cultural norm.
- Child seeing mother drinking. This is an interesting one. This is very much the norm and in many families, seeing parents getting drunk at home with family and friends will be a common experience. It's been clear to me for some time that the expectations in the US are very different. And you're also right about Buck Owens. 60's country music is much loved in the West of Scotland. Could go on at length about the reasons for this, but I won't. It's a minority interest!
The context is, of course, of the UK, and particularly Scotland having rapidly rising indicators of alcohol related harm across all age groups and both genders over the past 20 years. There has been a sudden burst of press interest in this and the optimists among us sense a change in the public mood, though in policy terms, we await to see what happens. This was in the Sunday Times yesterday.
"Scottish teen girls top the booze league
Camillo Fracassini
SCOTTISH teenage girls are the heaviest drinking in the world, according to an international study which reveals that, by the age of 15, more than a third are drinking spirits at least once a week."
As readers of the list will know, the parochialism of UK alcohol policy has been the subject of much comment, and a group of us have organised a meeting next month in Glasgow on International Policy comparisons at which Robin Room is speaking. I've just heard from Bruce Ritson that he's coming. I'll tell him you were looking for him.
Best Wishes,
Peter
Peter Rice,
Consultant Psychiatrist,
Tayside Alcohol Problems Service,
Sunnyside Royal Hospital,
MONTROSE.
DD10 9JP.
Tel 01674 830361
Fax 0870 1328595
----- Original Message -----
From: Rowdy Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:03 am
Subject: [***Spam***]?: Re: Dear Frankie
> THIS MESSAGE WAS ORIGINALLY POSTED TO THE KBS LIST BY RON ROIZIN.
> I'VETAKEN THE LIBERTY OF POSTING MY REPLY TO THE ALCOHOL-MISUSE
> LIST SINCE
> THERE ARE A NUMBER OF SCOTS-BASED PRACTITIONERS ON THE LIST WHO MIGHT
> HAVE FURTHER OBSERVATIONS.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> Know the film. It's a pretty accurate reflectiuon of life in the West
> of Scotland. The cigarette purchase scene is accurate too. We
> did some
> work in Barrhead a few years ago and purchasing cigarettes from corner
> vshops and chip shops was common. (Incidentally, is it only in
> Scotlandwhere you can buy cigarettes in chip shops? In my
> experience, they're
> not available in chip shops in England for instance). With corner
> shops, the owners were often Asian (usually Pakistani, Bangla
> Deshi or
> Indian). We frequently heard that it was easier for children to buy
> cigarettes (and alcohol) from Asian shopkeepers than from other
> indigenous retailers. Howevger, the commissioners of the study
> insistedthat that information be left out of the final report.
>
>
>
> The scene you describe of the two women sounds OK. It's a while
> since I
> saw the film but my recollection is that it was set in the late
> 1980s in
> a seaside town in Ayrshire (step into the limelight, unlovely
> Ardrossan)rather than present day. That would make the whisky (no
> "e") drinking
> plausible though probably more likely to be at Gran's instigation than
> at Mum's. In the past decade, drinking preferences have changed
> dramatically in Scotland (certainly amongst the working classes).
> Lageris the pre-eminent draught drink (although that had already
> more or less
> become the case in the 1970s). Whether lager or beer, men would
> alwaysdrink it in pints (except where drinking half and half - see
> below)whilst women would generally take a half-pint which is seen
> as more
> "ladylike". The classic "half and half" (or "half and a wee
> half") of
> half a pint of beer with a measure of whisky is now regarded as
> just for
> older men. More people are putting ice in their whisky (once regarded
> as sacrilege or at the very least, a sign of latent homosexuality)
> instead of the traditional small amount of water. In the area of
> Scotland where I stay (Perthshire) vodka seems to be a more popular
> spirit now than whisky - generally taken with a soft drink mixer like
> coca cola or Irn Bru (a sort of Scottish version of cream soda).
> Amongst the women, ready mixed drinks seem to be incredibly popular.
> Usually these are in half-pint bottles and usually they are a mix of
> bacardi rum with a fizzy fruit juice.
>
>
>
> Obviously this is all anecdotal. I'm aware that much of this is
> describing a trend that has been in operation for decades. I may be
> wrong in feeling that it has accelerated dramatically in the last ten
> years.
>
>
>
> Not sure whether that answers all your queries. There are quite a lot
> of Scots practitioners on the Alcohol-Misuse list, so I'm copying this
> correspondence to them. I'll forward any responses to you.
>
>
>
>
>
> Rowdy Yates
>
> Senior Research Fellow
>
> Scottish Addiction Studies
>
> Sociology, Social Policy & Criminology Section
>
> Department of Applied Social Science
>
> University of Stirling
>
> W: http://www.dass.stir.ac.uk/sections/scot-ad/
> <http://www.dass.stir.ac.uk/sections/scot-ad/>
>
> T: +44(0)1786 - 467737
>
> M: 07960 - 403392
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kettil Bruun Society [[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Ron Roizen
> Sent: 29 January 2006 18:04
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Dear Frankie
>
>
>
> Watched the Scottish movie, Dear Frankie, last night. It's a story
> about a deaf nine-year-old boy (Frankie) who lives with his mother and
> grandmother. They've recently arrived in a new apartment in Glasgow.
> The movie is set in the present time. I won't go into the whole plot,
> but there were some scenes that struck me as interesting from a
> cross-cultural perspective on alcohol and cigarettes. For the record,
> I'm a great believer in the power of small and chance observations in
> furthering if not our knowledge at least our sense of the
> complexity of
> cross-cultural differences and similarities.
>
>
>
> 1. Soon after the little family arrives in its new digs, mom
> sendsFrankie down to the nearby fish & chips shot to get dinner.
> Grandma, a
> chain smoker, signals to Frankie to get her some cigarettes. Frankie
> asks for the smokes (by putting the V of his fingers up to his
> lips and
> pretend puffing out) in the shop and is denied by the clerk, who asks
> how old he is. In a few minutes, the mother comes down to the
> shop to
> get the cigarettes. She asks the same clerk if the boy could not make
> himself understood. The clerk says no, he made his meaning clear.
> What's so striking about this scene is that the boy and his mother are
> newcomers to the neighborhood and the shop, and therefore must
> have been
> relying on a generalized norm of the availability of cigarettes to
> children - either from the town from which they came or in blue collar
> Glasgow. The clerk invokes an age rule in not selling to the
> child (she
> asks the boy his age) but this was not expected by boy, mother, and
> grandma. The grandma, on learning that the boy couldn't get the
> cigarettes actually threatens to go down to the shop and teach the
> clerka thing or two. I don't think there is a venue in the U.S.
> at this
> point, even a strongly ethnic one, where sending a nine-year-old down
> for smokes is plausible. Even in a shop where the boy and his
> chain-smoking grandma were well known, this element is unlikely.
> Maybea small town and a disabled grandma would work in the U.S.,
> but even
> then the shopkeeper would be exposed to not inconsiderable risk, and
> reluctant. Since both Scotland and the U.S. have age laws for
> cigarettepurchase, I take the "Dear Frankie" scene to suggest that
> there is a
> stronger set of folk norms that parallel the official rules in
> Scotlandthan there is in the U.S. Would this be a good
> interpretation?
> 2. There is a late-night scene where the mother is walking along
> the waterfront bank with a stranger she has hired to play the role of
> Frankie's father for one day. Frankie is also in the scene; he is
> walking with another couple about 40 yards ahead of his mom and her
> companion. The man in this other couple, and perhaps the woman as
> well,are quite drunk. They are clumsily dancing for one another
> as they walk
> with the boy, who is imitating their dancing as well. This scene,
> withmom enjoying a casual conversation, would strike most U.S.
> watchers as a
> bit too rough I think. The boy's co-presence with drunken adults, the
> clumsy dancing, and the nearby threat of the sea would have put a U.S.
> mom closer to the boy or perhaps placed the boy with the mom and away
> from the other couple entirely.
>
> 3. Earlier, the other couple, Frankie, mom, and hired
> companion are
> at a dance club. Companion brings drinks back to their table, and he
> places a very large beer in front of mom. She demurs, saying she
> can'tdrink all that, and the man in the other couple says: "Well
> I know a
> man who can." The same man ends up with the big beer and mom gets a
> much smaller glass. The scene interests me in what the
> presentation of
> the very big beer to the mom means in the Scottish cultural
> context if,
> at the same time, her demurring response is quite predictable and
> expectable. BTW, there is a very close shot of the big beer in the
> scene when it arrives at the table - suggesting that this is something
> of an event in the symbolic progress of the story. I'd be
> interested in
> interpretations from a British angle.
>
> 4. Mom and grandma share a "wee dram" of whiskey (whisky?)
> for no
> particular reason when mom suggests that she simply needs a drink.
> They
> both drink about an ounce-and-half or two ounces, straight, from small
> glasses. This scene, too, would have been a difficult sell in a film
> set in the U.S. Even in a blue-collar household, I suspect, the scene
> would have played truer in the U.S. if a bottle of wine hand been
> openedand a glass or two shared-maybe a beer or two. Comments?
> Remember,we're talking about a grandma and mom alone.
>
> 5. Finally, there is a sweet scene where grandma, mom, and the
> woman from the other couple are getting pleasantly soused and singing
> old songs - sitting on a couch together. Mom sings her favorite
> song -
> a romantic Buck Owens fantasy tune. Frankie, unobserved, watches the
> scene wistfully through a door window. His sense of the activity is
> seemingly sentimentally positive - seeing his long-suffering mom enjoy
> herself for once is a good thing. The scene, with Frankie observing,
> however, and once again, would play a little rough in a U.S.
> storyline.There is a strong norm about exposure of children to
> intoxication - if
> you will, a deep separation between the world of attributed
> innocence of
> the child and the grittier non-innocence of adulthood - that would
> havemade the scene, in a U.S. movie, evoke just a little unease
> for a U.S.
> audience I think. Again, comments welcome.
>
>
>
> Where is Bruce Ritson when I need him!
>
>
>
> Am taking the liberty of posting this to both the KBS and the ADHS
> lists.
>
>
>
> Ron Roizen
>
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