JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for SPM Archives


SPM Archives

SPM Archives


SPM@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Monospaced Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

SPM Home

SPM Home

SPM  2006

SPM 2006

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Sorry-- R/L question

From:

John Ashburner <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

John Ashburner <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:19:04 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (119 lines)

> This is a question that has troubled most of us for dozens of hours.

It certainly has.

> Here are a few remarks:

These are (mostly) good comments. I thought that I would elaborate on them a
little.

> 1) the image file is just a sequence of bytes, which has no defined
> orientation. The way it is displayed (radiological vs neurological)
> depends on the image viewer and its parameters

This is true. The important thing is what the order of the bytes actually
mean. i.e. which direction changes fastest, which direction changes slowest
etc. SPM assumes that this sequence of bytes is reordered into a 3D array
(much like the Matlab reshape function does), and uses a voxel to world
mapping to get from the indices of the bytes to a real world space. The
mapping should be such that the resulting coordinates are within a
right-handed system.

e.g. for a 4x3x2 3D image, the bytes would be numbered as following in the
first plane:
 1 2 3 4
 5 6 7 8
 9 10 11 12

and as here in the second plane:
13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24

For example, the indices are 1,2,2 for voxel number 17, and 1,2,1 for voxel
number 5. We can generally call these i,j,k. A voxel to world mapping by a
matrix M would map to real world coordinates.

x = m_11*i + m_12*j + m_13*k + m_14
y = m_21*i + m_22*j + m_23*k + m_24
z = m_31*i + m_32*j + m_33*k + m_34

Such an affine transform can encode different zooms, rotations and
translations. If you use the SPM conversion routines to convert from DICOM
to NIFTI, then information in the DICOM files is used to generate the
voxel-to-world mapping. In SPM5, it is written in the .hdr files. In SPM2,
it is written in .mat files. SPM99 is now very ancient, so I'm not going to
say anything about it.

>
> 2) The defaults.analyze.flip parameter can be vicious. Changes do not
> always produce the expected results. It depends, amongst others, on the
> presence of a .mat file
> (http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A2=ind03&L=SPM&P=R221621&I=-3).
> It should never be changed.

The defaults.analyze.flip parameter is not needed for images in NIFTI format.
It is only there for compatibility with images created by SPM99, and other
Analyze images that don't have .mat files.

> 3) The image on SPM's 3D views can be wrong even if it is correctly
> displayed on the slices. It assumes your images are in the neurological
> orientation.

The orientations in the orthogonal viewer should be the same as described on
our web site. If you click on the left side of the brain, then the x
coordinates in world space should be smaller than those that arise when you
click on the right side.

The slices viewer (when you get three slices though an image, with blobs
superimposed) just displays the data as it is stored in the file. These
could be saggital, coronal or axial, and they could be slices after the image
volume has been rotated in any way. For this reason, it is a good idea to
check the coordinates of different positions in the slices, as this will tell
you which is the left or right side of the brain (assuming you have your file
format correct).

> 4) For clinical use, I use radiological convention.

Is there any such thing as radiological convention for coronally or saggitally
oriented data? I prefer to use the terms left- or right- handed. See
http://www.fil.ion.ucl.ac.uk/~john/misc/handedness.gif

> For research
> studies, if I want to use the neurological convention, I flip the image
> files simply with the "Display " tool (resize {x} = -1, then "reorient
> images", and select ALL the images). You must do it before the analysis. I
> once tried to flip the contrast files, it did not work.

I wouldn't personally suggest doing mixing orientations (handedness). If you
want to display rotated images, then I would suggest rotating then by pi
radians about the y axis.

If you really need to flip, then you should be very careful to make sure that
they are flipped the appropriate number of times. The spm_orientations
function is useful for this. Type the following to see how it is used...
    help spm_orientations

>
> 5) The only way to be sure is to use an external marker (tube filled
> with water or contrast agent), or to identify an assymetry in the brain
> during the MR acquisition. You check it 2-3 times, then you can trust your
> orientation. If ANYTHING changes (scanner, file format, image converter,
> analysis software,...), you repeat the validation procedure.

If you are in a small lab with very little scientific support, then I would
definately suggest using external markers. Here at the FIL, providing we are
using data from our own scanners, then we don't have any of these orientation
issues at all. It is only when we have to take data from elsewhere that the
problems arise.

>
> Hope it helps...

If you use SPM5 with NIFTI format and a reliable format converter, and dont
mix your orientations - then you shouldn't have any problems at all.


Best regards,
-John

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

May 2024
April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
2006
2005
2004
2003
2002
2001
2000
1999
1998


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager