I think that fairly describes some of the differences of emphasis and
style between the critical and community camps (actually fully fledged
settlements by now).
However this (to me) reads very differently from the idea of conflict and
falling out that came over from your earlier posting Paul (blimey I nearly
did a discourse analysis!).
Where (as at MMU) there is a critical mass of people practising
alternative approaches to psychology there are bound to be differences -
that diversity is broadly a good thing, but in describing that we do
indeed need some precision in our language.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul@home [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 14 December 2005 12:53
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] On being critical again - clarification
> fr om Ian Parker MMU
>
>
> Hi Carl,
> Yes, I'd be happy to. I think it really important that we explore these
> difference and diversities. I kind of thought that was what our field was
> about, ie., rather us trying to construct a new, homogenous, one size fits
> all way of thinking and practicing.
>
> I suppose to charaterise it at is most grotesque the antagonism I feel
> between the com psy camps and the crit psy camps at MMU and elsewhere
> might
> be illustrated in the following made-up conversation.
>
> Com Psys: Look here crits, we might share similar politics, but quite
> frankly no on can understand a word you say. You just sit around in your
> slippers, smoking your pipes, giving sermons on what is wrong with the
> world
> and quoting wierd philosophers and critical theorists who wrote fancy
> stuff
> in the last century. Quite frankly, if you came to talk to the people I
> work
> with, who live in the most appauling conditions of poverty and distress,
> they would either slip into a coma or depart in disgust Why don't you
> start
> speaking plain english, get out of your comfy armchairs and do something
> to
> change the world rather than just talk about changing the world?
>
> Crit Psys: Look here coms, we might share similar politics, but quite
> frankly your use of language is so imprecise it could be interpreted to
> mean
> anything and everything. While you are jumping up and down on your soap
> boxes shouting out for social change and social justice, pretending to
> know
> what the significance of the philosophers and critical theorists we quote
> 'really' is, your lack of sophisticated, reflexive, theoretical thinking
> means you might find your clarion calls for justice being embraced by the
> opressors to improve their techniques of oppression rather than by the
> oppressed to further their struggles out of oppression.
>
> There, that might stir up some discussion ... perhaps, though I am not
> aware of many critical psychologists (both those with qualifications
> legitimated by and those with qualifications delegitimated by the higher
> education academy) on our list so we might not have as much friction and
> exploration of diversities among us as we might hope. Of course, we don't
> know about those who are silent partners at present on our list, but it
> seems to me that have at least a sprinkling of those who identify
> themselves
> as critical community psychologists (CCPs). I am one, though to achieve
> parity with others and have a double-jointed rather than triple jointed
> title, I am toying with the idea of dropping the 'psychologist' bit and
> calling myself a 'cricial community'.
>
> Of course, as a CC(P), I suppose that under the above characterisation of
> the two camps, I mostly speak an unsophisticated goobledook and jump up
> and
> down on my armchair rather than my soap box!
>
> kind regards
> p
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Harris Carl (RQ3)
> BCH
> Sent: 14 December 2005 11:07
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] On being critical again - clarification
> fr om Ian Parker MMU
>
>
> Sorry Paul
>
> I hadn't read this reply to Mark's passing on of Ian Parker's statement
> before I sent mine off.
>
> Glad I wasn't the only one who didn't find its effect clarifying. Your
> response is very helpful in "contextualising" the statement.
>
> I am also interested to hear more about the frictions between community
> and
> critical staff at the MMU. Not just so that I can tell my colleagues about
> it over a hot chocolate, but rather because there are tensions between
> people's positions that it probably helps to clarify in this relatively
> safe
> environment.
>
> Can "the" story of the tensions be told without a personalising "he said,
> she said" element?
>
> Cheers
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul@home [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 13 December 2005 21:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] On being critical again - clarification
> from
> Ian Parker MMU
>
> This is a clear as puddle water to me, I am afraid...
>
> Surely Ian Parker's statement is in relation to his and Mark Burton's
> working relationship (as Ian's statement is primarily written in the
> personal singular pronoun and I take the 'we' in Ian's message to refer to
> Mark and Ian not to collectives of crit and com psychs in and around MMU).
> I
> am not just being pedantic about grammar, I am actually quite upset by the
> way we are being invited to read Ian's statement because I am at MMU and I
> don't want it read that how Ian and Mark work together necessarily
> represents how I and com psychs and crit psychs work together or for that
> matter how any
> of us work together. If Ian Parker intended for his statement to represent
> how all the crit and com psychs
> relate to one another at MMU, I will be having words with him over a
> strong
> skinny latte!
>
> I am sorry, but Ian's statement does not clarify the position between
> those
> known as 'critical psychologists' and those known as 'community
> psychologists' in and around MMU, it clarifies what one person who is
> known
> as a 'critical psychologist' thinks about his working relationship with
> one
> person known as a 'community psychologist' in and around MMU. I find it
> deeply unhelpful for this statement to be used in a way to suggest it says
> something more than that. I am a critical community psychologist at MMU
> and
> I see much falling apart between various critcal and community people as I
> see falling together. I actually see much friction between the two groups
> of
> people - as a critical-community psychologists at MMU I often fall apart
> myself!
>
> Moreoever, this would seem a very wierd email indeed. Why is Ian Parker
> making a statement to our list members on his working relationship with
> Mark
> Burton? It should be unclear to us where it has sprung from,
> unfortunately
> it might not. If it has sprung from the content of a private email
> correspondence between two list members that was sent accidentally to the
> list then perhaps the assumption is that none of us has respected the fact
> that it was clearly a piece of private correspondence that was not
> intended
> to be read by the list. As such, it assumes that none of us respected the
> privacy of these two list members. I do hope that this email from Mark and
> Ian has not sprung
> from there. Are we acting as ethically as we should in relation to what we
> do with private emails sent accidentally to the list?
>
> I find it very disheartening that if I were ever to accidentally send a
> private email to the list that I might have insufficient cause to trust
> list
> members to delete it without reading it. I am certainly going to be very
> careful in the furture as to whom I send my online order form for the
> complete works of Jeffrey Archer!
>
> paul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Mark Burton
> Sent: 13 December 2005 14:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] On being critical again - clarification from
> Ian Parker MMU
>
>
> Ian Parker has asked me to post this, which clarifies the position between
> those known as 'critical psychologists' and those known as 'community
> psychologists' in and around the Manchester Metropolitan University (MMU).
> __________________________________________________________________
>
>
> I have seen Mark's provocative contribution on the difference between the
> use of a critical theoretical framework on the one hand and the worst of
> simple critical complaint on the other.
> Mark and I agree about lots of things, but I count him as one of my
> comrades in the attempt to engage in genuine constructive critical
> theoretical work. There is an overlap between what I try to do under the
> rubric 'critical psychology' - in which I take my distance from the
> 'postmodern' relativist merely academic attempt to carve out
> a market niche for the 'criticals' - and what Mark is doing in the sphere
> of
> 'community psychology'.
> This overlap is where we stand together, community and criticals, at MMU.
> Ian Parker
>
>
>
> --
> From Mark Burton
> Manchester UK
>
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> completely free from such problems and we do not accept any liability for
> loss or damage which may be caused. This communication is intended solely
> for the addressee and is confidential. If you are not the intended
> recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or
> omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful.
> Any information, materials, graphics, and/or opinions posted by the Sender
> are those of the respective Sender and do not necessarily reflect the
> opinion of Birmingham Children's Hospital NHS Trust unless explicitly
> stated to the contrary.
>
> ___________________________________
>
> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK.
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--
From Mark Burton
Manchester UK
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