"why would anyone seek to defend an economic system that depends for its
very
survival on ever increasing consumption, a need which has a devastating
impact on society and nature?"
i dont want to sound rude and this is not directed at anyone in particular.
but i think a lot of people in this forum should come down from their ivory
towers (best way i can say it, sorry). my experiences in campaigning and
trying to get people to sign a petition urging the council to build council
houses for working class people was illuminating. the council subsided the
construction of those expensive apartments in town - which only well off
bussiness people can afford! bottom line is: the general public aren't
particularly alturistic. students will sign the petition against tutition
fees, but never the council housing one. working class people dispise the
student petition and will generally only sign the housing one if they
themself or someone they know needs a home to live in! rich people *never*
sign the housing petition (not that i'm aware of), but may sign the tuition
fees one.
for all intensive purposes people on this list generally do not share the
mindset of your "average person". you may like to think your average, but
your not, everyone on this list is far from average, verging on the
"weirdo". what you think, is not what joe sixpack is thinking about. i for
one, do not claim to be "average" - i *know* i'm a weirdo!
i think its important everyone trys to gets a "feel" for the mindset of the
average punter. people like to be happy, anything that detracts from that is
considered bad. drinking lots, partying, going out with friends, driving big
cars are all considered desireble. however people like to think they're
"good people" and hence will always pay lipservice to this concept. no one
wakes up and think - "i'm an evil person and i like that!", even hitler
thought he was a good person and doing the right thing for his country,
george w bush and everyone on this list thinks the same way! (scary and
soberringly true).
the bulk of people on this planet prop up the current economic system
because it give them (so they think) what they want - immediate happiness.
if your going to propose a system of hardship like prohabition or rationing
people wont like it; and it will just create massive underground black
markets (as what happened with rationing, although people like to pretend
that the "spirit of the war" meant everyone was "good" and neighbourly).
sadly you may just have to play the role of the "illuminati" and shepherd
people into doing things you wish them to do. like heavily tax
non-recyclable packaging to discourage manufactures from using it; device a
system to automatically sort out and recycle household rubbish; heavily tax
petrol to make alternative cars more attrative, etc. . .
people dont vote greens in mass numbers because they are. . . fickle.
they're scared the greens will ruin their happiness by implimenting harsh
changes (as mentioned before). somehow you have to convice people this isn't
going to happen and impliment stealth tactics to find ways of lessening the
impact on them. let the people pay lipservice and say "yes i agree with. .
." once that happens, take that edith and impliment it in such a way that
people can not but have to obide by it (like subsiding the alternative car
industry and tax the petrol cars more). i know its sick to be elitist and
rely in vanguardist tactics like i've mentioned, but i think its the only
way that will work. the alternative is to wait a century for a climatic
holocaust, at which point change will come from below.
"we" (or you people) should expect mass public inertia and have to
*constantly* push the case on people so they give the fickle nod of the head
to signify that they're "good people"; but even then expect low penetration
and ultimately rely on the stealth i mentioned above.
everyone prefers the carrot to the stick. give them the carrot! but keep the
stick hidden, and use both.
peace
nav
From: Chris <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Chris <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [GP-Climate] Biofuels & forest]
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:52:35 -0000
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These worries about 'the economy' just beg the question of why would anyone
seek to defend an economic system that depends for its very
survival on ever increasing consumption, a need which has a devastating
impact on society and nature?
This attitude of unending economic growth being the main priority of social
activity, with the survival of humanity coming in a close second, reminds me
of The Sun campaign from the 'Cold War' 1980's - Better Dead than Red - the
idea being it would be better to die in a nuclear conflagration than
give one inch to those dastardly Ruskies.
It doesn't seem we have moved on much from those days.
Best
Chris
www.theirfuture.org
Parenting in age of climate change
----- Original Message -----
From: SowNet
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [GP-Climate] Biofuels & forest]
Surely that should ENCOURAGE people who believe we are at the end of the
era of economic growth to vote Green - if the Green Party takes the lead in
proposing a sustainable alternative. By doing so, of course, it won't get
elected for some time, but I am sure you are used to that. Why bother with
people expecting the Greens to run the economy in a conventional way? Set
your sights some way into the future, when a few climatic disasters might
bring people to their senses.
Jim Scott
PS I have stood for the former Ecology Party in the 1983 parliamentary
election, and had a lot of fun goading William Waldergrave in Bristol West.
Visit www.save-our-world.net (global) & www.save-our-world.org.uk
Registered charity no. 1111210 in England & Wales
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Keene" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: [GP-Climate] Biofuels & forest]
> The trouble is that it is the ending of the current economic ideology
> that puts people off voting Green.
>
> I was speaking to a fellow student from the UEA People and Planet
branch
> earlier this week and she would not vote Green if she thought we would
> be likely to form a national government because she thought Greens
could
> not run the economy.
>
> I don't know what to do about this
>
> Chris Keene
>
> Chris wrote:
>
>> These sorts of stories highlight the impossibility of trying to
>> maintain current Western lifestyles through 'renewable' energy
>> sources. The only answer is a reduction of energy used, which would
>> spell the end of the current economic ideology.
>>
>> Boo hoo.
>>
>> Chris
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Keene"
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 10:39 AM
>> Subject: [Fwd: [GP-Climate] Biofuels & forest]
>>
>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: [GP-Climate] Biofuels & forest
>>> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:09:37 +0000
>>> From: [log in to unmask]
>>> Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18825265.400 22 November
>>> 2005 Forests paying the price for biofuels
>>> THE drive for "green energy" in the developed world is having the
>>> perverse effect of encouraging the destruction of tropical
>>> rainforests. From the orang-utan reserves of Borneo to the Brazilian
>>> Amazon, virgin forest is being razed to grow palm oil and soybeans to
>>> fuel cars and power stations in Europe and North America. And surging
>>> prices are likely to accelerate the destruction
>>> The rush to make energy from vegetable oils is being driven in part
>>> by European Union laws requiring conventional fuels to be blended
>>> with biofuels, and by subsidies equivalent to 20 pence a litre. Last
>>> week, the British government announced a target for biofuels to make
>>> up 5 per cent of transport fuels by 2010. The aim is to help meet
>>> Kyoto protocol targets for reducing greenhouse-gas emissions....
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Lera Miles
>>> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lera.m/
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
>
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