JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for DIGITALCLASSICIST Archives


DIGITALCLASSICIST Archives

DIGITALCLASSICIST Archives


DIGITALCLASSICIST@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

DIGITALCLASSICIST Home

DIGITALCLASSICIST Home

DIGITALCLASSICIST  August 2005

DIGITALCLASSICIST August 2005

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Unicode Questions

From:

"Patrick T. Rourke" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

The Digital Classicist List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:18:00 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (106 lines)

I agree with MM on two of these.

Alpha acute is a different character from alpha grave, because it has  
a different semantic meaning (the tone is different, not simply the  
position as is the case with e.g. sigma terminal), it is not merely a  
different glyph. The only significant glyph differences in Greek that  
I can see enshrined in Unicode are the various sigmas (terminal sigma  
is whole issue that Nick has written on well, though I do think that  
at least the case of abbreviations simply reveals an ambiguity in our  
use of the point rather than a semantic distinction between terminal  
sigma and medial sigma. But that's a probably deservedly  
idiosyncratic position, and Nick's guidance should be followed there.  
I think the lunate sigma is probably a glyph variant: it is about  
typography and not text, and if one really wants a lunate sigma one  
should use a font that assigns lunate glyphs to both the terminal and  
medial sigma code points; but there may be a distinct usage of the  
lunate sigma that I'm not aware of or forgetting.)

Morpheus should eventually be rewritten to handle Unicode as well as  
betacode, unless it is so much harder that the kludge of a transcoder  
at each end is more acceptable.

As for characters that exist in beta code and not in Unicode, this is  
another issue entirely. A number of people either on this list or on  
the [log in to unmask] list have been working on this, but it will  
take a while to get the code points assigned. Some of the  
"characters" are markup and should not be assigned Unicode code  
points. Some have semantic differences from existing characters which  
the Unicode Consortium (rightly or wrongly) considers insignificant  
(take e.g. the acrophonic numerals with the same letterforms as  
letters: is it really fair to expect those to be encoded differently  
when the original users may have considered them to be the same  
characters?). Some are very rare characters which may be variants of  
existing characters and would be best represented with the existing  
character and distinguishing markup. And some are idiosyncratic  
characters which perhaps should not be encoded at all.

[For example, I don't think the Phaistos Disk should be encoded  
because it is a "script" with only one exemplar, and could be  
anything - a board game, some kind of calendrical or logistical tool,  
an exercise in creating "signs" by someone who had seen e.g.  
hieroglyphs but didn't want to actually invent a script - maybe even  
an ancient fraud pretending to be an Egyptian item created by someone  
who only knew of hieroglyphs by report.]

I would recommend looking through http://www.tlg.uci.edu/ 
quickbeta.pdf and determining if any information would be lost by  
converting your corpus to Unicode. If so, is it the sort of  
information that really ought to be in markup? Is it something that  
can be indicated by a combination of existing characters that would  
be typographically indistinguishable from existing characters (even  
if only with the use of markup) and which one could reasonably  
explain as an abbreviation rather than as an alphabetic/syllabic  
character, diacritic, logogram, or ideogram? Is it only one or two  
occurrences that you could reasonably indicate with a markup element  
that should be replaced with a graphic (I'm thinking of some of those  
idiosyncratic coronis example)? In all of these cases, you're going  
to have a hard time displaying characters that are in betacode but  
not in Unicode anyway, so if you're primarily interested in  
displaying texts for reading and not in using your corpus for  
analysis, you'll have to deal with this problem anyway.

So the final answer I'd propose is this: if you have a corpus that  
requires the distinction of betacode characters that cannot be  
resolved into a non-ambiguous unicode character sequence, use  
betacode for storage and Unicode for display purposes and web  
services (and make sure you come up with SOME way of normalizing the  
betacode into something a non-betacode savvy user can understand),  
and be prepared to migrate to Unicode as your backend when it becomes  
feasible. If it doesn't become feasible, either a.) you are thinking  
about your characters in the wrong way and Unicode is right not to  
support the characters you want, b.) you have noticed a real gap in  
Unicode's coverage (missing precomposed characters that can be  
represented with a spacing character and a combining diacritical  
don't count) and should talk to someone like Deborah Anderson, Nick  
Nicholas, or Michael Everson about it, or 3.) it's in Unicode, but  
you need to find someone to champion it with the OS vendors or the  
typographers.

If you have a corpus that uses only characters that are already  
encoded in Unicode and well-supported by the three major environments  
(Windows XP+, OS X+, Unix/Linux distributions newer than 2002) - well  
supported meaning that the standard distribution comes with at least  
one font that can represent each character legibly, if not  
beautifully - there's really no point to not use Unicode.

Patrick Rourke


On Aug 27, 2005, at 7:00 PM, DIGITALCLASSICIST automatic digest  
system wrote:

> #1 isn't really quite accurate. It is true that alpha+acute and alpha
> +grave are separate Unicode characters. But it is also the case that
> the different alphas are or can be bundled for search procedures.
> Thus on the Macintosh character palette, an alpha with any accent
> will bring up all the other alphas. And Java lets you search on a
> case/diacritic inensitive basis.
>
> #2 is true.  What would it take to rewrite morpheus to accept Unicode
> or write a preprocessing routine that converts Unicode to betacode
> when you want to feed morpheus?
>
> #3 is also the case. But it is theoretically and practically possible
> to generate appropriate Unicode sequences.

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

May 2024
April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
January 2006
December 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager