Your advise is worth a lot.

This is the result of me being bullied over more than a decade by positivists
who shouted at me : who cares about you - you are only one - You do not matter
you are insignificant.  how can one person be meaningful.
Jack says I am screwed by these people.  But I was forced to comply to them to
get qualifications and respect and status from colleagues (respect is an
ontological principle).

Quoting Karl Rogers <[log in to unmask]>:

> Now you are starting to get interesting. Firstly, for me (as well as many
> others) it is an interesting philosophical question whether any philosophical
> narrative differs from literature and poetry. Do Plato's Dialogues differ
> from Shakespear's Plays? Parmenides' poem from those of John Dunne? Nietzsche
> from Tolstoy? I think that it is an interesting and open question. Many a
> book has been written on just this subject. Are they literature too?
> But, what I also find philosphically interesting, from a pyschological point
> of view, is this need to categorise literature as something outside
> knowledge, as "self-indugent", or merely entertainment. I think that it is
> much, much more important than that. Narrative defines who we think we are
> and what we think the world is, it situates us within history, it offers us
> visions of the future. It orientates us as living, social beings.
> Again, I think that the problem is concerned with the positivistic demand for
> productive techniques and methodologies to select and analyse experiences,
> that, at bottom, are merely supported by convention and consensus. In so far
> as you insist on finding any universally acceptable methodology to ground
> your work then you are still very much bound up with the positivistic
> paradigm, with its metaphysical precepts.
> Whilst you may well be right to be so, this is still very much open to
> question and perhaps you should consider liberating youself from it. You only
> need to demonstrate a link between a methodology and a conclusion if you
> insist that others must agree with that conclusion. Free yourself from this
> insistance and just write, let others be the judge of the merits of what you
> write. If they find it interesting, insightful, or helpful then you have
> contributed.
> So, for what it is worth, my advice is that you should stop telling us what
> to think about how to think and just tell us what you think. We may well be
> more interested in it than you think.
> Karl.
>
>
> A Serper <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I know. Good point. But then how can it be a heuristics, a contribution to a
> field, of interest to others, and a scholarly, academic work, as opposed to
> self-indulgent - which I wish it were - or a narcistic, egocentric chase for
> my
> tail. How will it differ from literature and poetry.
>
> How about putting forward a structure, a heuristic tool, a methodology, an
> epistemology, an ontology, an approach to those who do it - LAR people,
> practitioner researchers, action researchers, autoethnographers, writers,
> etc.
> Is it better? less arrogance? Alon
>
> Quoting Karl Rogers :
>
> > Alon, before you start frothing at the mouth, I am not saying that you
> > shouldn't do what you are doing. Not at all. What I am saying is that you
> > should stop telling others that they should do it too! This is especially
> > true when, as you admit, you do not know what you are doing, how to act for
> > the best, or whether your project is ultimately good for you or anybody
> else.
> > So whilst, with all sincerity, I wish you all the best of luck in the
> world,
> > I will steadfastly resist your tyrancial insistance that your
> > autobiographical approach in somehow necessary for me or anyone else. It is
> > also somewhat arrogant. It is yet to be shown that you are capable of
> "saving
> > your own soul", let alone that of anyone else. Stop preaching and just get
> on
> > with it.
> >
> > A Serper
> wrote:What I am trying to do is to put forward a
> > stucture, a heuristic, a heuristic
> > tool, a system, an approach, a methodology for an integrated psychology of
> > human existence. I try to take human existence out of social science,
> > philosophy and science and create a new domain for it where I think it will
> > be
> > better off. I use my life as a case study and illustration. I think it
> takes
> > an enormous courage and heroism, philantropy and altruism to do so. I do so
> > as
> > a psychologist of human existence. I am well aware of that most individuals
> > have had worse struggles and pain then me. I see this all the time. I
> > suported
> > them for many years and gave all my heart to them. My work includes them
> too.
> > Alon
> >
> > Quoting Karl Rogers :
> >
> > > From many of our past conversations, I know that you are driven to write
> > > about your self and your struggles. It really goes without saying that I
> > > fully respect your right to write about whatever concerns you. I know
> that
> > > you feel deeply, passionately about your work, and that you have enormous
> > > difficulties with life that you are confronting. I am not suggesting that
> > you
> > > are not committed to your own project. I know that you are. It is your
> > life,
> > > after all.
> > > However, my criticism of you, dear Alon, is that not only is your work
> > overly
> > > self-obsessed but you tend to universalise your project: that we should
> all
> > > struggle as you do. The thing is this Alon: Many of us have struggled
> with
> > > our lives and ourselves and we have either overcome this struggle or come
> > to
> > > some kind of truce with ourselves. Many of us also have known pain, loss,
> > > loneliness, and been lost in struggles against our own nihilism. But we
> > have
> > > come through it. We do not need to wallow.
> > > There are some of us who have actually reached the point that you strive
> > for.
> > > We do not need to return to our past; it has taught us its lessons and we
> > > have moved on. We are now concerned with other things. And we are happy
> to
> > be
> > > so. Let us be so.
> > >
> > > A Serper
> > wrote:
> > > I think I just pushed send by mistake before
> > >
> > > Hi Karl
> > >
> > > I do not like nor enjoy it at all. In fact, this has been a complete hell
> > for
> > > me. Doing so entailed enormous pain and anxieties. I had to face and
> > examine
> > > the possibility that I might find out that I have been a horrific, or
> just
> > a
> > > bad human being, that my life was meaningless and an illusion and
> > > unproductive,
> > > that some individuals’ lives and existence might have been better had I
> not
> > > be
> > > and better off without my existence here. This has been extremely scary
> and
> > > full of angst experience.
> > >
> > > I have analysed and reflected on everything that happened, every little
> > > detail –
> > > and made a mountain out of a very small hill – which is one of the
> problems
> > > in
> > > this research. It has made my life very difficult, as it did the life of
> > the
> > > loved ones who chose to share their life with me.
> > >
> > > This is the first time I include my personal life in a project. I have
> > > normally
> > > very zealously kept it away. I have only done that in the last two years
> as
> > > an
> > > opportunity to take time off, to reflect and analyse and still do it in a
> > > manner
> > > that can be of a contribution to others and a to field and approach.
> > >
> > > The problem, for me, is how can I talk about individuals’ producing an
> > > account
> > > of their being in the world as a heuristic tool, in a manner that I think
> > is
> > > the best, most appropriate way to tackle human existence, without doing
> it
> > > and
> > > showing I have been doing it myself? It will be like the French priest
> > > telling
> > > his perish to do what he says but not what he does. How can I preach for
> > > something and not do it myself? Could I be treated seriously then? Would
> > this
> > > fulfil the values of self-respect for myself and my work, my life
> project?
> > > But
> > > I put a word of extreme caution, and care, of the extreme difficulties
> > which
> > > doing so entail and the extreme inner strength that it requires and
> > discussed
> > > it extensively. There is nothing romantic about this project. It is a
> > serious
> > > emotional hell.
> > >
> > > I keep away very strictly from revealing and exposing and from cheap
> > > ‘pornography’ and exposure. There are enough novels, magazines, tabloids,
> > TV
> > > shows (e.g., Jerry Springer) and reality TV for this. I am not fond of
> that
> > > at
> > > all. I talk hypothetically and merely relate generally to human issues
> and
> > > episodes that could be grasped and shared by most if not all human beings
> > in
> > > common.
> > >
> > > I have also known love and great relationships and most incredibly
> > > friendship,
> > > with individuals willing to carry out personal self-sacrifice and severe
> > > personal risks for me and vice versa. The last days have been rough days
> > > because of uncertainty that needs to be worked out and things that make
> me
> > > anxious and think about in making plans and commitment. It was part of
> > > discussions about life-time commitment – When, How, children, how many?
> > When?
> > > Etc, etc and personal needs and desires. I do things that I think are
> very
> > > meaningful and enjoy them. I am generally pleased from my findings and
> > > results
> > > of the project. I put a time limit on it and hope to be able to take a
> > short
> > > break from this type of work soon. It has really saturated and exhausted
> > me.
> > >
> > > I think my point is similar to yours – I call upon a therapist, a
> > counsellor,
> > > an
> > > educator to take accountability for his/her life/existence and to engage
> in
> > > self-analysis into self-development as a human being and educate
> > > himself/herself prior to educating others into becoming better, improved
> > > human
> > > beings.
> > >
> > > But self-analysis and the self include others. We need the other – How
> can
> > we
> > > analyse and examine the question of being a better partner without a
> > partner,
> > > a
> > > better friend without friends, and better family-man/women without
> family?
> > > Alon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Quoting Karl Rogers :
> > >
> > > > Alon,
> > > > Let me reply briefly. As you well know, there are many differences
> > between
> > > us
> > > > about how we approach life and philosophy. That is true of us all. I
> know
> > > > that you like to talk and write about existential uncertainty,
> > complexity,
> > > > and angst, in terms of your own pain and suffering. For me, it is a
> > private
> > > > matter. That is not to say that I do not think that you are in error by
> > > > focussing upon these. It is clearly very important for you to do so
> and,
> > > > perhaps, it is a way of healing yourself. But, I do not share this need
> > to
> > > > confess my pain in public. I have been very fortunate in my life and
> have
> > > > found love and happiness with my friends and wife, side by side with
> the
> > > > freedom to live and work freely, and have the economic security to do
> so.
> > > > [Touch wood]. Furthermore, I have been lucky since birth and had a
> > > relatively
> > > > stable and liberal childhood in which I was able to freely explore both
> > > > "self-self" and "self-other" relationships, as you put it, which of
> > course
> > > > became increasingly
> > > > complicated as I grew older. I have known pain and the loss of loved
> > ones,
> > > > through both death and betrayal, as well as experiencing deep personal
> > > > changes and the difficulties of being myself in a complex, confusing,
> and
> > > > often contradictory world. Most of us have. So, you see Alon, I do not
> > > > disagree with what you are saying, it is just the case that, as the
> > English
> > > > expression goes, you are teaching your grandmother how to suck eggs.
> > > > Furthermore, in the last chapter of my book, I do talk about how the
> > modern
> > > > sciences were metaphysically postulated as a mask to cover a world in
> > which
> > > > fear, uncertainty, and complexity are immanent, in order to provide a
> > means
> > > > by which human beings could teleologically defer their angst in the
> face
> > of
> > > > the capriciousness of Nature by substituting a sense of increased
> > > > technological power as a metaphor for truth and understanding. So, you
> > see,
> > > I
> > > > do talk about these things, but, perhaps, not quite in the personal way
> > > that
> > > > you would like. The thing is, Alon, that this book is the culmination
> of
> > > > fifteen years of study, in both the physical sciences and philosophy,
> > that
> > > > lead from a masters in physics to a doctorate in the philosophy of
> > science,
> > > > via a masters in philosophy (incidentally, my masters dissertation was
> > > > written on technoscience and the existential subject), and there is
> quite
> > a
> > > > lot of my life that has gone into it. It is a very personal work that,
> > > > hopefully, will be of interest
> > > > to others.
> > > > Finally, on a philosophical point of disagreement, open to considerable
> > > > discussion, I simply disagree with you that the "self-self"
> relationship
> > is
> > > > prior to "self-other" relationships. I think that they go hand in hand
> > > (often
> > > > literally). I only really came to know myself as a distinct self
> through
> > my
> > > > relationships with others, many of which were extremely difficult and
> > > > challenging, as well as pleasureable and enlightening, and, in turn, I
> > was
> > > > only able to successfully relate to others when once I has become
> > > successful
> > > > at relating to myself. It is a dialectic. And, believe me when I say
> that
> > > it
> > > > is still, very much, a work in progress...
> > > > but, as the cliche goes, we are all different. Vive la difference.
> > > > love, Karl.
> > > >
> > > > A Serper
> > > wrote:
> > > > Thanks for this Karl
> > > >
> > > > There are two elements that bother me here
> > > >
> > > > 1) the self-self relationship
> > > > 2) Uncertainty, complexity and angst
> > > >
> > > > As you, you know I believe in the self-self relationship and taking
> > > > accountability for oneself and one’s actions and regard the self-other
> > > > relationships as part of it. Still, the self-self relationship is
> needed
> > > for
> > > > professional and ethical interactions with others.
> > > >
> > > > I believe the latter is useless without the former. Without this
> > > > ontological critical analysis and self-study of one's ontology and
> being
> > in
> > > > an
> > > > attempt to lead the most meaningful, moral and productive life feasible
> > for
> > > > oneself in and with the world,
> > > > there is no educational process, no meaningful social relationships and
> > no
> > > > ethos
> > > > nor ethics - nothing.
> > > >
> > > > The self-other relationships, in my opinion, are part of it and can
> > merely
> > > be
> > > > pursued from within the self-self relationship. As a constructing
> > > > phenomenologist, I regard the social other as a heuristics for the self
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > question how do I lead, or learn to lead, a more meaningful existence
> for
> > > > myself in and with the world?, using the social other and self dialogue
> > > with
> > > > the self as a heuristics.
> > > >
> > > > I believe in taking accountability for oneself, going inward before
> going
> > > > outward to the social other.
> > > >
> > > > If only it were that simple. Human existence and the human condition
> are
> > > > extremely uncertain phenomena. I am currently going through ontological
> > > > difficulties myself. I have not slept for ages and this is very much
> > > related
> > > > to
> > > > what I wish to put forward here as a thesis/monograph.
> > > >
> > > > I thus suggest and believe that the key thing of all, prior to social
> > > > dialects
> > > > and interactions that are part of it, is the relation between the self
> > and
> > > > itself in order to preserve, protect, love and nourish itself, its
> > > > ontological
> > > > security, well-being, self-respect, dignity and integrity. If not I for
> > me
> > > > then no one for me, as the ancient Hebrew saying goes.
> > > >
> > > > Life and human existence are complex and extremely uncertain. There are
> > > > constant ontological and existential clashes, menaces, struggles,
> > dilemmas,
> > > > hazards and uncertainties that are thrown at us unexpectedly with no
> > > control
> > > > over, shake us and are craved for some sense, meanings, rationale,
> order
> > > and
> > > > a
> > > > bit of sanity.
> > > >
> > > > For example the clash between love, warmth and sharing one's life and
> > > > existence
> > > > with a partner and not being alone against the elements of a
> > > > materialistic/economic well-being, which is essential for both the
> > physical
> > > > and
> > > > aesthetic self and being, ontological security, self-respect,
> ontological
> > > > well-being, integrity and autonomy. The clash between the desire to be
> > > > decent,
> > > > supportive, offering and acting in unconditional love and support in
> > order
> > > to
> > > > fulfil the ambition of being a good, caring and ethical being and the
> > need
> > > to
> > > > avoid ontological suicide and pathology and a menace to one’s career
> and
> > > > life’s
> > > > ambitions.
> > > >
> > > > This is hell and extremely painful. But one needs to try to take and
> grab
> > > > control analyse the situation and the possibilities, plan and think
> ahead
> > > for
> > > > the long term, analyse and follow the dialectic engagement that I
> propose
> > > and
> > > > follow his/her conscious and the desire/need to self-preserve and to
> lead
> > a
> > > > meaningful and good existence in the world.
> > > >
> > > > I really believe the future of humanity will benefit from this and
> > > > individuals
> > > > will develop into more decent and moral and loving and caring beings.
> > > >
> > > > I fail to see the recognition of the uncertainty and gushing sense of
> > lose
> > > > and
> > > > panic and angst in what you are saying. Haw do you account for them?
> > > >
> > > > Alon
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Quoting Karl Rogers :
> > > >
> > > > > Alon,
> > > > > Thank you for the congratulations.
> > > > > Yes it is a monograph -- most academic books are -- and, I guess,
> that
> > > the
> > > > > paperback version will appear once the first edition hardback has
> been
> > > > soold.
> > > > > I also think that it is expensive, so, unless you are feeling
> > > particularly
> > > > > rich, I suggest, if you feel so inclined, that you request that the
> > > library
> > > > > buys a copy.
> > > > > This book is primarily critically concerned with the idea that
> > > experimental
> > > > > physics provides us with knowledge of the natural world. However, it
> is
> > > not
> > > > a
> > > > > work about the epistemology of science. It is in fact an effort to
> > clear
> > > > away
> > > > > ontological preconceptions about who we are and our place in the
> world,
> > > by
> > > > > showing how experimental physics is founded upon those
> preconceptions.
> > It
> > > > is
> > > > > in fact a preface to an deeper existential relation to the world, for
> > > those
> > > > > of us who have inherited positivistic conceptions of Man and Nature,
> > and,
> > > > in
> > > > > my own way, an effort to help free us from that inheritance by
> > > questioning
> > > > > whether those conceptions are, in fact, based upon empirical facts or
> > > > > metaphysical precepts.
> > > > > How does this book relate to your work? Well, as you know from our
> > > previous
> > > > > conversations, my academics interests are in the relationships
> between
> > > > > rationality, freedom, and happiness. For me, philosophy is a lived
> and
> > > > > personal intellectual pursuit that is primarily directed to discover
> > the
> > > > > extent that one can have a rational understanding of how to live a
> free
> > > and
> > > > > happy life. It is quite obvious that, in this respect, the "academic"
> > > > > divisions between ethics, aesthetics, and analytics are not only
> > > arbitrary,
> > > > > but also unhelpful. Given that we are social beings, our own
> > > philosophical
> > > > > interpretations of meaning and purpose are achieved through social
> > > > > dialectics, historically mediated by inherited narratives, then it is
> > > quite
> > > > > impossible to avoid using preconceptions and assumptions in order to
> > > > > communicate to others in public or ourselves in private. However,
> even
> > if
> > > > we
> > > > > cannot avoid using preconceptions and assumptions, we still need to
> > > > > critically reflect upon the impact of preconceptions
> > > > > and assumptions upon how we understand ourselves and the world in
> which
> > > we
> > > > > exist. I am concentrating my efforts on raising a critical awareness
> of
> > > the
> > > > > biases of the so-called "natural sciences" because it is my belief
> > that,
> > > > for
> > > > > many people in the modern world, their understanding of "self" and
> > > "world"
> > > > > presupposes a certain degree of "false consciousness" and arrogance
> > > > regarding
> > > > > their own objectivity, knowledge, and methodologies. Once we have
> > > > highlighted
> > > > > and critically examined this "false consciousness" then we can see
> how
> > > > > ethnographical and phenomenological work, such as living action
> > research,
> > > > is
> > > > > no more, nor less "scientific" than the so-called postivistic
> sciences
> > > > > (including both "natural" and "social" sciences). This awareness not
> > only
> > > > > permits us to defend our right to "unmethodological" inquiry against
> > > those
> > > > > that make claim to the neccessity of "positivistic methodology", but,
> > > > > perhaps, due to the richness, complexity, and subtety of reflective
> > > > narrative
> > > > > (autobiographical or
> > > > > otherwise) over numerical data, we have a case for claiming a greater
> > > > degree
> > > > > of rigor. It is for this reason that I consider my book as being a
> > > preface
> > > > to
> > > > > narrative based research, such as living action research, in so far
> as
> > it
> > > > > aims to help clear a free space, so to speak, for such narratives to
> be
> > > > free
> > > > > of positivistic restrictions and demands.
> > > > > Anyway, the first chapter is free on Palgrave Macmillan's webpage, so
> > > read
> > > > it
> > > > > and judge for yourself whether it is interesting to you. After all,
> you
> > > > might
> > > > > think that £45 is a bargain for such wisdom.
> > > > > love, Karl.
> > > > >
> > > > > A Serper
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Congratulations, Karl on the new book
> > > > >
> > > > > This is one of the most expensive book I have encountered. Why is
> that?
> > > Is
> > > > > there a softcover too?
> > > > >
> > > > > I, myself, am currently working on a monograph on the possibility to
> > > > > accommodate
> > > > > human existence and the conception of the human subject through
> > > > individuals'
> > > > > engaging dialectically with the question how do I lead a more
> > meaningful
> > > > > existence in and with the world for myself?, through constructing,
> > > > conveying
> > > > > and sharing a personal systematic, phenomenological analysis of
> > > ontological
> > > > > principles - ontological security, dignity, well-being, integrity,
> > > respect
> > > > > from
> > > > > others and self-respect - which are shared by all human subjects in
> > > common
> > > > in
> > > > > light of this engagement with that question. I hope this will be
> > accepted
> > > > as
> > > > > the leading heuristic tool for the conception of human existence.
> > > > >
> > > > > As you can see, our extensive conversations from December, 2003,
> really
> > > > > helped,
> > > > > which is why I am saying it here to you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Are there any overlaps with your book? Is it a monograph as well?
> > > > >
> > > > > Alon
> > > > >
> > > > > Quoting Karl Rogers :
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi folks,
> > > > > > Please excuse the obvious "plug", but I thought that some of you
> > might
> > > be
> > > > > > interested to know that my book (presenting a critical analysis of
> > > > > scientific
> > > > > > knowledge in the so-called positivistic natural sciences) is being
> > > > released
> > > > > > next month. Details can be found at
> > > > > > http://www.palgrave.com/products/Catalogue.aspx?is=1403945284
> > > > > > best regards,
> > > > > > Karl.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends
> > > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends
> > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > > Send instant messages to your online friends
> > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> > >
> > > Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com