No I am saying that I am a psychologist as a professional and as far as
knowledge is concerned. I am not just a human yakker. It is grounded within
my professional expertise and embodied knowledge.
Quoting Karl Rogers <[log in to unmask]>:
> I thought that you said that the study of human existence had to be done
> without disciplines such as psychology. Or are you now say that psychology
> provides a special insight?
>
> A Serper <[log in to unmask]> wrote:And this is why I do so as a constructive
> critical psychologist who in past work
> has extensively critiqued all existing and past heuristic tools of human
> existence and argued that an alternative needs to be constructed, that does
> not
> yet exist.
>
> Engaging with the ideas of others have shown me possibilities that I have not
> been aware of ('I', living contradiction logic, dialectic, materialistic 'I',
> living theory, living educational theory, action research, living action
> research) before. I then return as a psychologist and claim to be able to put
> forward the alternative heuristics that I searched for. I do so as a proven
> psychologist of human existence, who is also a human being, and illustrate it
> as a human being an individual who is part of the human race.
>
> I ground it within my proven/demonstrated professional expertise as a
> critical
> psychologist of human existence and as part of the human culture.
> Alon
>
>
>
> Quoting Karl Rogers :
>
> > From many of our past conversations, I know that you are driven to write
> > about your self and your struggles. It really goes without saying that I
> > fully respect your right to write about whatever concerns you. I know that
> > you feel deeply, passionately about your work, and that you have enormous
> > difficulties with life that you are confronting. I am not suggesting that
> you
> > are not committed to your own project. I know that you are. It is your
> life,
> > after all.
> > However, my criticism of you, dear Alon, is that not only is your work
> overly
> > self-obsessed but you tend to universalise your project: that we should all
> > struggle as you do. The thing is this Alon: Many of us have struggled with
> > our lives and ourselves and we have either overcome this struggle or come
> to
> > some kind of truce with ourselves. Many of us also have known pain, loss,
> > loneliness, and been lost in struggles against our own nihilism. But we
> have
> > come through it. We do not need to wallow.
> > There are some of us who have actually reached the point that you strive
> for.
> > We do not need to return to our past; it has taught us its lessons and we
> > have moved on. We are now concerned with other things. And we are happy to
> be
> > so. Let us be so.
> >
> > A Serper
> wrote:
> > I think I just pushed send by mistake before
> >
> > Hi Karl
> >
> > I do not like nor enjoy it at all. In fact, this has been a complete hell
> for
> > me. Doing so entailed enormous pain and anxieties. I had to face and
> examine
> > the possibility that I might find out that I have been a horrific, or just
> a
> > bad human being, that my life was meaningless and an illusion and
> > unproductive,
> > that some individuals’ lives and existence might have been better had I not
> > be
> > and better off without my existence here. This has been extremely scary and
> > full of angst experience.
> >
> > I have analysed and reflected on everything that happened, every little
> > detail –
> > and made a mountain out of a very small hill – which is one of the problems
> > in
> > this research. It has made my life very difficult, as it did the life of
> the
> > loved ones who chose to share their life with me.
> >
> > This is the first time I include my personal life in a project. I have
> > normally
> > very zealously kept it away. I have only done that in the last two years as
> > an
> > opportunity to take time off, to reflect and analyse and still do it in a
> > manner
> > that can be of a contribution to others and a to field and approach.
> >
> > The problem, for me, is how can I talk about individuals’ producing an
> > account
> > of their being in the world as a heuristic tool, in a manner that I think
> is
> > the best, most appropriate way to tackle human existence, without doing it
> > and
> > showing I have been doing it myself? It will be like the French priest
> > telling
> > his perish to do what he says but not what he does. How can I preach for
> > something and not do it myself? Could I be treated seriously then? Would
> this
> > fulfil the values of self-respect for myself and my work, my life project?
> > But
> > I put a word of extreme caution, and care, of the extreme difficulties
> which
> > doing so entail and the extreme inner strength that it requires and
> discussed
> > it extensively. There is nothing romantic about this project. It is a
> serious
> > emotional hell.
> >
> > I keep away very strictly from revealing and exposing and from cheap
> > ‘pornography’ and exposure. There are enough novels, magazines, tabloids,
> TV
> > shows (e.g., Jerry Springer) and reality TV for this. I am not fond of that
> > at
> > all. I talk hypothetically and merely relate generally to human issues and
> > episodes that could be grasped and shared by most if not all human beings
> in
> > common.
> >
> > I have also known love and great relationships and most incredibly
> > friendship,
> > with individuals willing to carry out personal self-sacrifice and severe
> > personal risks for me and vice versa. The last days have been rough days
> > because of uncertainty that needs to be worked out and things that make me
> > anxious and think about in making plans and commitment. It was part of
> > discussions about life-time commitment – When, How, children, how many?
> When?
> > Etc, etc and personal needs and desires. I do things that I think are very
> > meaningful and enjoy them. I am generally pleased from my findings and
> > results
> > of the project. I put a time limit on it and hope to be able to take a
> short
> > break from this type of work soon. It has really saturated and exhausted
> me.
> >
> > I think my point is similar to yours – I call upon a therapist, a
> counsellor,
> > an
> > educator to take accountability for his/her life/existence and to engage in
> > self-analysis into self-development as a human being and educate
> > himself/herself prior to educating others into becoming better, improved
> > human
> > beings.
> >
> > But self-analysis and the self include others. We need the other – How can
> we
> > analyse and examine the question of being a better partner without a
> partner,
> > a
> > better friend without friends, and better family-man/women without family?
> > Alon
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting Karl Rogers :
> >
> > > Alon,
> > > Let me reply briefly. As you well know, there are many differences
> between
> > us
> > > about how we approach life and philosophy. That is true of us all. I know
> > > that you like to talk and write about existential uncertainty,
> complexity,
> > > and angst, in terms of your own pain and suffering. For me, it is a
> private
> > > matter. That is not to say that I do not think that you are in error by
> > > focussing upon these. It is clearly very important for you to do so and,
> > > perhaps, it is a way of healing yourself. But, I do not share this need
> to
> > > confess my pain in public. I have been very fortunate in my life and have
> > > found love and happiness with my friends and wife, side by side with the
> > > freedom to live and work freely, and have the economic security to do so.
> > > [Touch wood]. Furthermore, I have been lucky since birth and had a
> > relatively
> > > stable and liberal childhood in which I was able to freely explore both
> > > "self-self" and "self-other" relationships, as you put it, which of
> course
> > > became increasingly
> > > complicated as I grew older. I have known pain and the loss of loved
> ones,
> > > through both death and betrayal, as well as experiencing deep personal
> > > changes and the difficulties of being myself in a complex, confusing, and
> > > often contradictory world. Most of us have. So, you see Alon, I do not
> > > disagree with what you are saying, it is just the case that, as the
> English
> > > expression goes, you are teaching your grandmother how to suck eggs.
> > > Furthermore, in the last chapter of my book, I do talk about how the
> modern
> > > sciences were metaphysically postulated as a mask to cover a world in
> which
> > > fear, uncertainty, and complexity are immanent, in order to provide a
> means
> > > by which human beings could teleologically defer their angst in the face
> of
> > > the capriciousness of Nature by substituting a sense of increased
> > > technological power as a metaphor for truth and understanding. So, you
> see,
> > I
> > > do talk about these things, but, perhaps, not quite in the personal way
> > that
> > > you would like. The thing is, Alon, that this book is the culmination of
> > > fifteen years of study, in both the physical sciences and philosophy,
> that
> > > lead from a masters in physics to a doctorate in the philosophy of
> science,
> > > via a masters in philosophy (incidentally, my masters dissertation was
> > > written on technoscience and the existential subject), and there is quite
> a
> > > lot of my life that has gone into it. It is a very personal work that,
> > > hopefully, will be of interest
> > > to others.
> > > Finally, on a philosophical point of disagreement, open to considerable
> > > discussion, I simply disagree with you that the "self-self" relationship
> is
> > > prior to "self-other" relationships. I think that they go hand in hand
> > (often
> > > literally). I only really came to know myself as a distinct self through
> my
> > > relationships with others, many of which were extremely difficult and
> > > challenging, as well as pleasureable and enlightening, and, in turn, I
> was
> > > only able to successfully relate to others when once I has become
> > successful
> > > at relating to myself. It is a dialectic. And, believe me when I say that
> > it
> > > is still, very much, a work in progress...
> > > but, as the cliche goes, we are all different. Vive la difference.
> > > love, Karl.
> > >
> > > A Serper
> > wrote:
> > > Thanks for this Karl
> > >
> > > There are two elements that bother me here
> > >
> > > 1) the self-self relationship
> > > 2) Uncertainty, complexity and angst
> > >
> > > As you, you know I believe in the self-self relationship and taking
> > > accountability for oneself and one’s actions and regard the self-other
> > > relationships as part of it. Still, the self-self relationship is needed
> > for
> > > professional and ethical interactions with others.
> > >
> > > I believe the latter is useless without the former. Without this
> > > ontological critical analysis and self-study of one's ontology and being
> in
> > > an
> > > attempt to lead the most meaningful, moral and productive life feasible
> for
> > > oneself in and with the world,
> > > there is no educational process, no meaningful social relationships and
> no
> > > ethos
> > > nor ethics - nothing.
> > >
> > > The self-other relationships, in my opinion, are part of it and can
> merely
> > be
> > > pursued from within the self-self relationship. As a constructing
> > > phenomenologist, I regard the social other as a heuristics for the self
> in
> > > the
> > > question how do I lead, or learn to lead, a more meaningful existence for
> > > myself in and with the world?, using the social other and self dialogue
> > with
> > > the self as a heuristics.
> > >
> > > I believe in taking accountability for oneself, going inward before going
> > > outward to the social other.
> > >
> > > If only it were that simple. Human existence and the human condition are
> > > extremely uncertain phenomena. I am currently going through ontological
> > > difficulties myself. I have not slept for ages and this is very much
> > related
> > > to
> > > what I wish to put forward here as a thesis/monograph.
> > >
> > > I thus suggest and believe that the key thing of all, prior to social
> > > dialects
> > > and interactions that are part of it, is the relation between the self
> and
> > > itself in order to preserve, protect, love and nourish itself, its
> > > ontological
> > > security, well-being, self-respect, dignity and integrity. If not I for
> me
> > > then no one for me, as the ancient Hebrew saying goes.
> > >
> > > Life and human existence are complex and extremely uncertain. There are
> > > constant ontological and existential clashes, menaces, struggles,
> dilemmas,
> > > hazards and uncertainties that are thrown at us unexpectedly with no
> > control
> > > over, shake us and are craved for some sense, meanings, rationale, order
> > and
> > > a
> > > bit of sanity.
> > >
> > > For example the clash between love, warmth and sharing one's life and
> > > existence
> > > with a partner and not being alone against the elements of a
> > > materialistic/economic well-being, which is essential for both the
> physical
> > > and
> > > aesthetic self and being, ontological security, self-respect, ontological
> > > well-being, integrity and autonomy. The clash between the desire to be
> > > decent,
> > > supportive, offering and acting in unconditional love and support in
> order
> > to
> > > fulfil the ambition of being a good, caring and ethical being and the
> need
> > to
> > > avoid ontological suicide and pathology and a menace to one’s career and
> > > life’s
> > > ambitions.
> > >
> > > This is hell and extremely painful. But one needs to try to take and grab
> > > control analyse the situation and the possibilities, plan and think ahead
> > for
> > > the long term, analyse and follow the dialectic engagement that I propose
> > and
> > > follow his/her conscious and the desire/need to self-preserve and to lead
> a
> > > meaningful and good existence in the world.
> > >
> > > I really believe the future of humanity will benefit from this and
> > > individuals
> > > will develop into more decent and moral and loving and caring beings.
> > >
> > > I fail to see the recognition of the uncertainty and gushing sense of
> lose
> > > and
> > > panic and angst in what you are saying. Haw do you account for them?
> > >
> > > Alon
> > >
> > >
> > > Quoting Karl Rogers :
> > >
> > > > Alon,
> > > > Thank you for the congratulations.
> > > > Yes it is a monograph -- most academic books are -- and, I guess, that
> > the
> > > > paperback version will appear once the first edition hardback has been
> > > soold.
> > > > I also think that it is expensive, so, unless you are feeling
> > particularly
> > > > rich, I suggest, if you feel so inclined, that you request that the
> > library
> > > > buys a copy.
> > > > This book is primarily critically concerned with the idea that
> > experimental
> > > > physics provides us with knowledge of the natural world. However, it is
> > not
> > > a
> > > > work about the epistemology of science. It is in fact an effort to
> clear
> > > away
> > > > ontological preconceptions about who we are and our place in the world,
> > by
> > > > showing how experimental physics is founded upon those preconceptions.
> It
> > > is
> > > > in fact a preface to an deeper existential relation to the world, for
> > those
> > > > of us who have inherited positivistic conceptions of Man and Nature,
> and,
> > > in
> > > > my own way, an effort to help free us from that inheritance by
> > questioning
> > > > whether those conceptions are, in fact, based upon empirical facts or
> > > > metaphysical precepts.
> > > > How does this book relate to your work? Well, as you know from our
> > previous
> > > > conversations, my academics interests are in the relationships between
> > > > rationality, freedom, and happiness. For me, philosophy is a lived and
> > > > personal intellectual pursuit that is primarily directed to discover
> the
> > > > extent that one can have a rational understanding of how to live a free
> > and
> > > > happy life. It is quite obvious that, in this respect, the "academic"
> > > > divisions between ethics, aesthetics, and analytics are not only
> > arbitrary,
> > > > but also unhelpful. Given that we are social beings, our own
> > philosophical
> > > > interpretations of meaning and purpose are achieved through social
> > > > dialectics, historically mediated by inherited narratives, then it is
> > quite
> > > > impossible to avoid using preconceptions and assumptions in order to
> > > > communicate to others in public or ourselves in private. However, even
> if
> > > we
> > > > cannot avoid using preconceptions and assumptions, we still need to
> > > > critically reflect upon the impact of preconceptions
> > > > and assumptions upon how we understand ourselves and the world in which
> > we
> > > > exist. I am concentrating my efforts on raising a critical awareness of
> > the
> > > > biases of the so-called "natural sciences" because it is my belief
> that,
> > > for
> > > > many people in the modern world, their understanding of "self" and
> > "world"
> > > > presupposes a certain degree of "false consciousness" and arrogance
> > > regarding
> > > > their own objectivity, knowledge, and methodologies. Once we have
> > > highlighted
> > > > and critically examined this "false consciousness" then we can see how
> > > > ethnographical and phenomenological work, such as living action
> research,
> > > is
> > > > no more, nor less "scientific" than the so-called postivistic sciences
> > > > (including both "natural" and "social" sciences). This awareness not
> only
> > > > permits us to defend our right to "unmethodological" inquiry against
> > those
> > > > that make claim to the neccessity of "positivistic methodology", but,
> > > > perhaps, due to the richness, complexity, and subtety of reflective
> > > narrative
> > > > (autobiographical or
> > > > otherwise) over numerical data, we have a case for claiming a greater
> > > degree
> > > > of rigor. It is for this reason that I consider my book as being a
> > preface
> > > to
> > > > narrative based research, such as living action research, in so far as
> it
> > > > aims to help clear a free space, so to speak, for such narratives to be
> > > free
> > > > of positivistic restrictions and demands.
> > > > Anyway, the first chapter is free on Palgrave Macmillan's webpage, so
> > read
> > > it
> > > > and judge for yourself whether it is interesting to you. After all, you
> > > might
> > > > think that £45 is a bargain for such wisdom.
> > > > love, Karl.
> > > >
> > > > A Serper
> > > wrote:
> > > > Congratulations, Karl on the new book
> > > >
> > > > This is one of the most expensive book I have encountered. Why is that?
> > Is
> > > > there a softcover too?
> > > >
> > > > I, myself, am currently working on a monograph on the possibility to
> > > > accommodate
> > > > human existence and the conception of the human subject through
> > > individuals'
> > > > engaging dialectically with the question how do I lead a more
> meaningful
> > > > existence in and with the world for myself?, through constructing,
> > > conveying
> > > > and sharing a personal systematic, phenomenological analysis of
> > ontological
> > > > principles - ontological security, dignity, well-being, integrity,
> > respect
> > > > from
> > > > others and self-respect - which are shared by all human subjects in
> > common
> > > in
> > > > light of this engagement with that question. I hope this will be
> accepted
> > > as
> > > > the leading heuristic tool for the conception of human existence.
> > > >
> > > > As you can see, our extensive conversations from December, 2003, really
> > > > helped,
> > > > which is why I am saying it here to you.
> > > >
> > > > Are there any overlaps with your book? Is it a monograph as well?
> > > >
> > > > Alon
> > > >
> > > > Quoting Karl Rogers :
> > > >
> > > > > Hi folks,
> > > > > Please excuse the obvious "plug", but I thought that some of you
> might
> > be
> > > > > interested to know that my book (presenting a critical analysis of
> > > > scientific
> > > > > knowledge in the so-called positivistic natural sciences) is being
> > > released
> > > > > next month. Details can be found at
> > > > > http://www.palgrave.com/products/Catalogue.aspx?is=1403945284
> > > > > best regards,
> > > > > Karl.
> > > > >
> > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends
> > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > > Send instant messages to your online friends
> > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> > >
> > > Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
> > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
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