I am interested in the idea of a poem evolving towards a form.

I find quite frequently that a poem pushes itself towards particular lineation and shape (I am using these words loosely rather than as specific definitions)

it reminds me of descriptions of dowsing by dowsers, though I have to say that the similarity between this experience and their reported experiences is as near as I come to having much truck with dowsing

I call some of my poems sonnets. Some of the poems that resemble sonnets go without that name. I have made visual poems which I call sonnets.

Sometimes I feel quite strongly that what I have called sonnets are such. Other times I am being combative. More often I am trying out an idea.

I suspect that there is a precedent for almost any such action. Whatever the legalistic critical mind says, the term is quite widely used; and there can be some interest in looking at a text and seeing how it can be called sonnet.

The sonnet, in forms widely accepted as sonnets, comes in many many forms. I don't see why it should be limited from further expansion. 

I didn't find Marcus' explanation of his concern entirely convincing. I say this not especially against Marcus. I have never found any explanation for such concern convincing. Poetry will not come to an end because someone misclassifies their poem.

I suspect that everyone here is into rules as part of writing. I reacted against the advice given because of the manner it was given - far too prescriptive. Inevitably - it seems - one of a family of defences of that was brought out - in this case Surely we all assume that such advice is implicitly qualified. I don't think that's true. By some people it would be taken as THE RULES; and I think we need to be careful. We need to distinguish between answers to questions like How do I make things italicised in msword? or What time is the gig? or How do I get your book? and How might I improve on what I have written? Other versions of the defence include Anyone who publishes their poetry to others should be strong enough to withstand comment of all sorts

I don't think that's good enough

I think it indicates a troubled mind, actually; but that's opinion.... I was thinking of the strict christians in BlackAdder who have crucifixes mounted on their head and shoulders... Believers

I also reacted against the advice given because some of it was bad. I do not know anyone who writes like that and produces writing worth reading. Poetry by numbers.

There's no joy in it. There's no point in it. 

Rules - restrictions - are fine. If you can legitimately ask What's the structure? or How did you do it? etc then there are rules. The trick of it is not to end up so tied up you can't escape.

In this case I seriously doubt the ear which advised you, from the moment it heard 4 beats where I heard 5

As to meeting the requirements, I'd say they are for the poet to decide, though that includes asking someone else to set the rules. I think that's a little odd myself, but consenting adults and all that. That leaves the poet with the initial decision. Who else is there to set requirements? It's a rare editor would make me change a word. I've said before, I think here, that our listowner guided me to improving an essay once. She never once said I should change a word of a poem: just some poems I offered were taken and some were not. Derek Beaulieu in Canada made design suggestions which enhanced some poems. The late Bob Cobbing once introduced an opinion with all the tact one would hope for in the case of major bereavement and led me to making a minor change. These are / were rare people, not necessarily able to do it all the time, but able rarely but at those moments to guide me; and they did it oh so cautiously. Rightly so. One can take a kind of behaviourist view and construct complex assumptions on what has been written - as we saw here - or one can reflect that what we say and write are in the way of largely submerged icebergs...

Some years ago, I sent a visual poem to an editor - he had actually asked for a submission. My work was returned. I clearly did not know the rules of this kind of poetry, he said.

Now if ever there were a new world with room enough for everyone and no indigines to fight back, it is visual poetry. Among the work of interesting practitioners, there is good and bad. I remember writing a review of a book some years ago where one page was the author's driving licence; and as I recall all that I could say was Bless him. There is brilliant work and downright bad work including work that seems to me more clueless than the most clueless dum de dum poetry. But no one is harmed that I can see; and sometimes a dreary poem is transformed for me by learning some detail of the author's language etc

And yet, there, in the middle of the land available to everyone, was this idiot who had made himself a marshal's badge. You don't know the rules.

Ye non-existent gods. I didn't know HIS rules.

All he had to say was I don't want to publish this.

And there was more. This buttonholing. I have heard the voice. Believe me or you are damned. It can be dressed up in all sorts of explanations, but I suspect that is the reality behind it - at least in some cases. Can't speak for Marcus, of course; but he does seem... ardent.

And now I shall retreat again into my busy preoccupied silence until I hear again the call from international rescue


L 
















  
  -----Original Message-----
  From: SB <[log in to unmask]>
  To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
  Date: Thursday, August 04, 2005 1:40 AM
  Subject: Re: any formalists in the crowd? -- thanks to Annie Finch!


   It was a piece (*almost* said "poem") that did
  not begin as a sonnet, but rather evolved in that direction, so I
  tried for it.

  I have no problem with rules -- especially if they have some flex to
  them -- and have written a very few sonnets that meet the
  requirements. Whether they are poems is another question, I believe,
  having to do with ears and music and other things previously mentioned
  on this thread.

  I've also done some syllabic verse, and agree that it's a very
  different thing. In fact, I don't believe that I've ever set out to
  write a syllabic piece, but have found the approach useful on occasion
  when I cannot seem to find 'natural' line breaks.