Very tasty, I'm sure, tho I don't know who they are.
I'm not sure that it makes any sense to group me and Ken as The
Opposition--I think we diverge considerably.
Steve V. mentioned Ornette Coleman's Free Jazz. A freedom resulting from
absolute mastery of the discipline, however acquired.
In his own day Bach was far better known as an improvisor at the organ than
as a composer. He had his chops. Not so very different.
Mark
At 12:30 PM 11/15/2005, you wrote:
>I wonder what you (and Ken) think of the Viennese Vegetable Orchestra?
>
>http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=29&art_id=qw1085413861497B232&set_id=1
>
>Roger
>
>On 11/15/05, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Agreed.
> >
> > A bit further: while a lot of what's being talked about became widely
> > broadcast in the 60s, whenever that was, as one who predates the 60s I can
> > tell you that a lot of it was already in place. The folkies I knew listened
> > endlessly to Folkways recordings of highly skilled traditional musicians
> > and spent days and weeks trying to replicate what they heard. There were
> > then no conservatories teaching blues guitar (for instance), but none of
> > these guys would have considered themselves untrained, and none were
> > chanting their native woodnotes wild. A few of the masters, Van Ronk among
> > them, gave private lessons--Danny Kalb was a Van Ronk student--but beyond
> > the basics it was not very different from sitting on the porch learning
> riffs.
> >
> > The same was true of poetry. There were always lots of young folk who
> > thought that anyone could do it just like that--my feelings, my orgasms,
> > are so terrific and unique all I have to do is write them down--hey, the
> > 19th century was also crowded with similar--but very few of them persisted
> > long enough to learn any craft. Those who did hung with older poets or with
> > each other and found their chops.
> >
> > I have to say that I find most of Cage and company pretty boring--I find
> > ideas about music less interesting than music, especially after the first
> > performance. But again, conceptual music and for that matter visual art
> > preceeds the invention of the term by a few decades. What changed was the
> > reception--the means of dissemination became more democratic. What also
> > changed was the invention of an audience without the patience to learn
> > anything, so that for instance minimalism (little m ore than a concept or
> > two), which requires little of the listener, found listeners. Phillip Glass
> > aint Bach or Carter, in case anyone hasn't noticed. I speak as one who sat
> > through the whole of Einstein on the Beach, The Photographer, and
> > Satyagraha. Does anyone even remember the last two? Puccini played through
> > jello.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > At 10:11 AM 11/15/2005, you wrote:
> > >Although I clearly am on side with those who feel that open form can be
> > >poetry, I do sympathize a bit with Dave's feelings about the need for
> > >craft, practice, whatever in poetry as in every kind of work/play.
> > >
> > >As George Bowering once said:
> > >
> > >for years I have learned to live in the middle of a seeming contradiction.
> > >Socially and politically I believe that I am a romantic leftist; but when
> > >it comes to the composition of literature I am an elitist. I am not
> > >reluctant to say that I'm interested in the art of writing. I like trade
> > >unions and hate chambers of commerce, but I am still not going to support
> > >an unlearned instinct poet in her delusion that she deserves the attention
> > >I will give happily to The Dumbfounding.
> > >
> > >
> > >Yup.
> > >
> > >Doug
> > >
> > >Douglas Barbour
> > >11655 - 72 Avenue NW
> > >Edmonton Ab T6G 0B9
> > >(780) 436 3320
> > >
> > >Each leaf a runnel the
> > >roofs now skiffs in green
> > >I've never done anything
> > >but begin.
> > > Lisa Robertson
> >
>
>
>--
>http://www.badstep.net/
>http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
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