The historians doubt they actually got it on, for no very good reason, as
far as I can tell, but there's no doubt that they thought about it--a lot,
as recorded in their passionate letters. They even talked about marriage,
but decided not, for reasons of career. And during Schumann's insanity,
while he was still at home, Brahms moved in. The difference in their ages
would not have been a novelty for Brahms--his mother was 14 years older
than his father.

But trruth be told the line is probably there because of the rhyme
"grolle/rolled." "Ich grolle nicht" is the title and first line of
Sxchumann's setting of the Heine poem.

For a long time, right into the 70s, it was assumed that Brahms died a
virgin, tho he had several well-recorded crushes on various sopranos. We
really don't know if any were consummated--he certrainly enjoyed the
company of young women--a major motivation for all the a capella choral
music. And we also know for sure that he hit the bordellos with some
regularity.

I love Brahms, especially the 2nd piano concerto, all the symphonies
(especially the 4th, but I'm a sucker for a good passacaglia, and I love
the way the entire piece is built out of a few motifs), the Fier Letzte
Liede, the Alto Rhapsody (which reminds us how cheap it once was to rent a
whole chorus. I have among others the Ferrier performance, incomparable,
and the simply astonishing Marian Anderson. Both are essential), the Double
Concerto (talk about erotic), and the cello sonatas--well, all the sonatas.
But I'm a lot more likely to turn to Bach, Dufay, Josquin or Monteverdi, or
to late Beethoven or Mozart or Chopin (I could go on). If one has to have
hierarchies, if we give Bach, say, an A Brahms gets an A-.

When I really need to bathe in Late Romantic eroticism I put on the
Rachmaninoff Cello Sonata. My ancient copy of Tortelier was the most
satisfying I've heard, but it's been played to the point of unplayability,
and I haven't been able to find a replacement--it's apparently not on CD.
If anyone has a copy I'd be eternally grateful. The Chopin was on the flip
side. But there's a very fine Starker performance.

A long answer to a short question. Blame it on the extra coffee.

Mark


At 11:58 AM 5/20/2005, you wrote:
>Fascinating and richly contrapuntal poem, Mark -- thanks for posting it.
>
>But do you have any actual factual (oh dear!) justification for that line
>'while Brahms and Clara rolled in the next room'? Everything I've read about
>them reckoned that so far as could be known they never actually consummated
>any sort of love together. He certainly later proposed to one of her
>daughters, Julie I think it was, and she turned him down.
>
>best     joanna
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 4:24 PM
>Subject: Brahms poem
>
>
>>A propos, I poem I wrote it must be 30 years ago, very Late Romantic, never
>>published. It takes an effort to remember the person who wrote it. As
>>usual, warning re: format distortions.
>>
>>
>>
>>BRAHMS AND MARVELL
>>
>>Brahms, we know, haunted bordellos, loved sopranos
>>and lady pianists, bathed
>>in post-coital sadness.   Ich grolle nicht
>>wrote Schumann    raving
>>while Brahms and Clara rolled in the next room. Marvell,
>>the scholars tell us, on the other hand,
>>died virginal    his women
>>figures of speech. His verses
>>argue otherwise
>>his mourning nymph not marble
>>but flesh
>>quivering in the shock of loss    a sexual loss. Or portraying his king as
>>rapist. Always
>>the awareness of pressure in his own groin
>>the garden itself
>>an orgy.
>>         Two paradises 'twere in one
>>         To live in paradise alone,
>>the passionate man's renunciation of passion for his self's sake. Brahms
>>is more explicit about his motives    he writes to Clara
>>he shall never marry,  his art requires it. Love
>>so comforting     you lose yourself in it    the self-absorbtion that the
>>act requires constantly
>>intruded upon by domestic necessity. Society
>>         is all but rude
>>         To this delicious solitude.
>>                                 I keep hoping
>>for my own solution    that
>>the love of life and its passing
>>can live together in my body with longing,
>>and with beauty,
>>who enters alone
>>like the moist girl from behind the curtains of my mind's castle    the
>>constant
>>adulteress. I have seen her,
>>her feet approaching over the bare stones
>>hidden within me. How
>>to conduct my life
>>with such a secret?