I have been both busy and away and so have not had the chance to read much
of what's been posted, and so I am coming to this thread in the
middle--which means I should apologize if I merely repeat what other people
have already said--but I was struck by Judy's story/experience for a couple
of reasons and, Judy, these are things you should keep in mind when you go
to meet with your professor. (Speaking as a college professor, I have to say
that from what you have said, she has acted in a profoundly unprofessional
and perhaps even libelous way, but that's for below.)

First, plagiarism has a very specific legal definition that, in academic
classrooms, is generally stated as follows: the use of someone else's words
or ideas as if they were your own--which means that you have not given them
credit and have not identified them as your sources. This means that, in
order for your poem to be plagiarized you had, in general, to do one of two
things: either you used someone else's precise words, or more or less
precisely, without saying you were quoting someone or you took the idea of
someone else's poem and wrote your own poem about precisely the same idea,
moving more or less through the same exact emotional experience and coming
more or less to the same ending. I don't know if this is really clear, so
let me say it this way: plagiarism is not mimicking someone else's style;
plagiarism is not writing a poem that takes another poem as an explicit
starting point; plagiarism is not writing a poem that grew out of a thinking
process something like this:
hey-isn't-it-cool-that-Edna-St.-Vincent-Millay-wrote-a-poem-about-burning-th
e-candle-at-both-ends-I-think-I'm-going-to-try-the-same-theme; plagiarism is
not any of these perfectly valid ways of approaching the writing of a poem.

Second, clarity about the definition of plagiarism is important because
plagiarism is an actionable offense--and I don't mean in a court of law, but
in an academic setting. My syllabus states quite clearly that if I catch
anyone intentionally plagiarizing on any assignment I hand out, they will
fail the class. (Since it is an educational setting, and I know that
students need to learn, the important word is "intentionally.") And I could,
if I wanted to, bring any student I caught plagiarism up on charges before
the disciplinary board, which is the body in my school empowered to deal
with such things. In some schools, plagiarizing can result in summary
dismissal and it gets put on your permanent record. So an accusation of
plagiarism by a professor is a very, very serious thing.

Which brings me to the third thing: Your professor, Judy, has essentially
accused your of a crime, theft, and, from what I have read, she has done so
without any evidence, or at least without any evidence that she was willing
to confront you with. Assuming that there is no plagiarism in your poem, she
has leveled a false accusation against you, one that could, potentially,
stain your reputation in ways that could follow you around for years. We
are, precisely, for this reason instructed never to accuse a student of
plagiarism outright unless there is no doubt in our minds, as has happened
to me when I have found on the internet the websites from which a student
cut and pasted the paper she handed in to me. Otherwise, there are lots and
lots of ways that you can find out if a student plagiarized without making
an accusation. And Judy, when you go to your meeting, you should make sure
your professor and whichever dean you speak to both understand that you
understand what you have been accused of and just how seriously they need to
take it if indeed you have been falsely accused. In theory, especially if
your professor chooses to pursue this further, you could sue over it.

There is lots more to say about this, I think, but I have written enough. I
hope it is helpful.

Cheers!

Rich Newman

_________________________________
Richard Jeffrey Newman
Associate Professor, English
Chair, International Education Committee
Nassau Community College
One Education Drive
Garden City, NY 11530
O:  (516) 572-7612
F:  (516) 572-8134
[log in to unmask]
www.ncc.edu 

-----Original Message-----
From: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and
poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of judy prince
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 1:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: "Fled is that Music. So Change the Record"

Joanna, she didn't say much of anything except to repeat that I had 
plagiarized.  She was VERY upset, and I think it doesn't help that I project

a weird external self, nose rings and purple hair and such.  Older people 
don't take you seriously when you do that, I've noticed.  Or they get angry 
right away even though you didn't do anything to them.

I love your idea about artists in all fields copying the "great Masters" (or

Mistresses, as the case may be).  I can relate to that having seen the 
paintings that show women, such as I think Mary Cassatt, but I'm not sure, 
who were in the Louvre copying the Masters just like it was perfectly 
respectable---which it was!  And also the pome I had written previous to the

one I got an F on was---and I stated it right on the top of the 
pome---"after the style of E.B. Browning".  So when she got this latest 
pome, maybe she combined the nose rings and purple hair with the "after EB 
Browning" and sort of dumped all that onto my newest pome----and then she 
just got angry I don't know why exactly.  I am not an easy person to deal 
with, Joanna, I confess that right up front.  It is both a curse and a 
blessing (for me as well as others).

I also love the part of your email which talks about the danger of getting 
hung up on pseudo-Keats, and, further, the job of a teacher to make 
available many varied kinds of pomes.

Do you realize how wonderful is the idea you proposed?  Imagine if in our 
lives we all were able to know many varied kinds of people and religions and

schools and careers and even yes even potential spouses.  I think we'd be a 
lot happier, don't you?  It is happening right now to me because of this 
wonderful beautiful Poetryetc!

Blessings and love,

Judy


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joanna Boulter" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: "Fled is that Music. So Change the Record"


> Judy, did your teacher mean you had plagiarised an entire poem, which I 
> cannot believe, or did she mean that your way of writing was not original?

> If that's it, I'd say plagiarised isn't the right term. Surely we all 
> 'have a go' at various styles at different stages in our writing lives, 
> more or less consciously trying them out -- it's how we develop our own 
> voice and technique, and it's akin to copying the Great Masters at art 
> school, or learning musical form by writing a set of variations in the 
> style, say, of Mozart. Very few writers find their own original style 
> springs up for them fully formed from the start. The danger is, that we 
> get hung up on writing pseudo-Keats or whoever, and can't progress. I'd 
> say it's your teacher's job to put some different examples in front of 
> you!
>
> cheer up
>
> best       joanna
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "judy prince" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 4:26 PM
> Subject: Re: "Fled is that Music. So Change the Record"
>
>
>> Not good news, Ken.  By the way, I should have thanked you for taking me 
>> seriously and giving all that explanation of your pome which made me 
>> understand it very well.
>>
>> I'm sad now, and it has nothing to do with your pomes which I always like

>> very much.  Actually my heart is broken.  I'm holding the poem I got back

>> today in class.  She gave me an F on it.  She said it was plagiarized 
>> which means copied.  But why would I copy anything when I love to write 
>> poetry?! I'm a sad person right now, K.
>>
>> J  (I never was yo mama, but maybe you could be my papa right now)
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Ken Wolman" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 10:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Fled is that Music. So Change the Record"
>>
>>
>>> judy prince wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gotcha, Ken!  I mean, I NEVER woulda guest it, not never!  Poets should

>>>> charge for this service---of explaining what the hell their pomes 
>>>> mean---thereby making enuff cash to pay for, uh, yeah, ok, forgit this 
>>>> . .
>>>
>>> Is it steady?  Are there medical benefits?  Do I get a company car and 
>>> expensive account?  I figure that for slinging that kind of junk I 
>>> oughta get no more nor less than a life insurance salesman can ask for.
>>>
>>>> Howsomever, let's bring our intellects back to the kernel most 
>>>> meaningful to moi and my sis/bro POMES FER DUMMIES classmates:  1)  Y 
>>>> don't poets know what their pomes mean?  and  2)  well, if U adequately

>>>> answer #1, then U don't need me to pose #2.
>>>
>>> I don't feel badly about this anymore--that I don't know what the hell 
>>> most poems "mean."  They mean something to me, they may mean something 
>>> else to you, or him, or her.  I THINK (bad practice) most poems want me 
>>> to engage with them imaginatively.  My imagination, not the writer's. 
>>> If we meet each other, awesome.  If not, we'll always have Paris:-).
>>>
>>>> I've been watching you a long time, K, at least a month now, and I 
>>>> think you can well handle that one question.
>>>
>>> This is starting to sound like a song by The Police.  "I'll Be Watching 
>>> You"?  I"m getting paranoid.:-)
>>>
>>> Ken <on the lam>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Kenneth Wolman
>>> Proposal Development Department
>>> Room SW334
>>> Sarnoff Corporation
>>> 609-734-2538
>>>
>>
>