Hi Phil
I've not read the entire debate, having just got back from holiday, and life being too short and all that! However I do think that in HBSMR we are already achieving pretty much what you say is needed (which should not be surprising since HBSMR was originally designed by you guys!!). Not saying it is perfect mind, but here's hopefully addressing all your points...
We have records indexed using "absolute time", with uncertainty indicated where necessary, but displayed to users using "labels". These labels are a combination of terms from a look-up table (that matches periods labels to absolutes), but they can be supplemented with additional texts and qualifiers, like "Pre-" or "Built 1850s, modified 1890-5".
Furthermore these look-up tables can be different for different areas of the country (e.g. our Scottish users have generally made significant changes, and many English users have augmented and altered the default list), so that the same term can represent different absolute dates in different areas, or conversely the same absolute dates can have different labels in different areas ( which is what I think you meant by "allow us to define periods geo-spatially"?). OK this is specified per HER area, but that is not a bad unit (oh no lets not start debating this one!!).
The data can be retrieved either using the labels or the absolute dates.
Lastly, we can display this information in different ways to different user communities (school/professional) when publishing through different media (e.g. web). All you need is a different version of the look-up table, and different labels appear out of HBSMR. We have applied this in a few specific scenarios, and the exact mechanisms depend on the type of output required.
So I'm not sure it is fair to say that the tools don't exist. I think they do exist, and most HERs are using them, but there is no doubt that the potential has not been fully explored, and much more work is needed to enhance and open these datasets up for wider usage and benefit.
cheers
Crispin
PS HBSMR users - remember that care is needed if this debate inspires a bit of look-up table tweaking!! We have an instruction doc on what issues to consider when doing this, contact us if you need.
-----Original Message-----
From: CARLISLE, Phil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 23 August 2005 16:49
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [FISH] Time's up!
Janet
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Until there's a system out there which will allow us to define periods geo-spatially as well as temporally I think this issue will go on and on.
The work done by the Electronic Cultural Atlas Initiative goes some way down the route but bottles out by not having a period list!
Steve Stead and Martin Doerr from the CIDOC CRM-SIG have also done a test run with data from the Greek Bronze Age to develop a timelines ontology but it's far from complete.
What we need is a way to identify periods in absolute time and attach labels to them which we as mere mortals can understand.
If we then develop 'views' we can label things the way we want to without the need to change the basic underlying structure. We could then have a 'schools', a 'professional' view etc.
At the moment though I don't think the tools exist - please somebody prove me wrong.
Going on past experience e-conferences on this subject area don't work and as you say we need to make this multi-disciplinary.
Phil
Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
National Monuments Record Centre
Kemble Drive
Swindon
SN2 2GZ
+44 (0)1793 414824
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-----Original Message-----
From: The Forum for Information Standards in Heritage (FISH) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of J DAVIS
Sent: 23 August 2005 16:41
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [FISH] Time's up!
Time is not going to resolve the periods question. I
was having these kind of debates with colleagues 20
years ago when records were on paper. I still find I
have these discussions now, except that the topic
comes up more frequently, involves people from more
disciplines, and there are more dimensions to the
issue in the age of electronic data - and it goes
beyond FISH.
I doubt that an e-conference would resolve it, but the
problem won't just vanish if we ignore it.
Janet Davis
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