Precisely. It can't be good for any art to become entirely dependent on one
kind of environment, which is what's largely happened in the US.
Mark
At 12:40 AM 2/10/2005, Thomas Fallon wrote:
>Mark -
>
>I have found the same make-up of writers' groups in my
>small and rural US state. I think we need the diversity
>represented by these different groups.
>
>We all choose "our" groups if we can, but I would hope
>that we wouldn't discourage aesthetic diversity through
>our personal biases.
>
>Tom
>
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>>That stings, Lawrence. I picked up the phrase from an earlier post. Meant
>>it as a stand-in for all the informal environments in which people hone
>>their skills.
>>
>>I understand the need that many have for a structured, non-threatening
>>environment for exchange, given the complexity of their lives.
>>
>>In the US it's become common for groups of writers or would-be writers to
>>form freestanding writers groups. They often serve as an alternative to
>>beery environments like the Mermaid. Many are women-only. The members
>>(regardless of the gender mix of a given group) usually have day jobs and
>>often children. Some of these groups have gone on for years.
>>
>>Reading groups are also increasingly popular--anything from the latest
>>best-seller to the arcane. For several years in the eighties and early
>>nineties I was in such a group with, among others, Armand Schwerner, Hugh
>>Seidman, the anthropologist Susan Slyomovics, Mike Heller, a bunch of other
>>people. We read Vygotsky, Aztec Poetry, Victor Turner, a lot of other
>>stuff--a book a month. The focus was always on language and practice,
>>however far afield the readings might seem.
>>
>>What I found useful about the reading group is that it brought people of
>>different ages and extremely varied experience and expertise together to
>>discuss their enthusiasms. Willard Gingerich, a scholar and translator of
>>Aztec poetry, for instance, was brought in by a member who knew him.
>>
>>Academic writing programs tend to be less various in their membership.
>>Mairead will probably tell me I'm wrong, but my impression is that most of
>>the students are in their twenties, and usually the only older person in
>>the room is the teacher. In informal settings writers have always sharpened
>>their skills and thoughts through contact with their contemporaries, but
>>not exclusively. What I've always found exhilarating about
>>non-institutional groups of any kind of artists is the mix of different
>>ages and experiences. In those environments the age-span of one's cohort
>>can be 40 years. Fraught with the same tensions as all friendships, but
>>nonetheless a way in which accumulated wisdom could be passed on.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>At 10:06 AM 2/10/2005, Lawrence Upton wrote:
>>>let's hear it for pub-based apprenticeships in writing
>>>
>>>L
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Mark Weiss <<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]
>>><<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]>
>>>Date: 10 February 2005 14:59
>>>Subject: Re: academic verse PS
>>>
>>>All graduate education in the US carries with it social cachet, certainly
>>>as opposed to the older solitary learning and pub-based apprenticeships in
>>>writing. I don't know anyone who went for an MFA who didn't see it as a
>>>career-builder. Here are a couple of paragraphs from Cornell's site. What
>>>do you think they imply?
>>>
>>>Will I be able to get a college or university-level teaching position with
>>>a Cornell M.F.A. degree?
>>>
>>>Writers with Cornell M.F.A. degrees and a national publication record have
>>>found tenure-track positions at colleges such as the The University of
>>>Arizona, the University of California at Santa Cruz, the University of
>>>Michigan, the University of Minnesota, University of Montana, Oregon State
>>>University, Penn State University, the University of Pittsburgh, Syracuse
>>>University, Vanderbilt University, and the University of Wisconsin,. Other
>>>Cornell M.F.A.s have found temporary or visiting-writer positions at
>>>places such as Boston College, Brown, Bucknell, Colgate, Howard, Stanford,
>>>Trinity (Hartford), and Hobart-William Smith.
>> >Will I increase my chances of finding a university-level teaching position
>>>if I earn both an M.F.A. degree and a Ph.D.?
>>>
>>>Not necessarily. If you have a Cornell M.F.A. degree and some kind of
>>>publication record, there is a good chance you will be competitive when
>>>you apply for university or college level teaching positions. If you want
>>>to enter the job market as a scholar as well as a creative writer, you
>>>might want to earn two degrees.
>>>
>>>Cornell, by the way, doesn't allow MFA students to teach until their
>>>second year, and they are required to take a pedagogy course first.
>>>
>>>I have no idea what's typical or not--it's not my world. But I certainly
>>>hear the stories.
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>>At 07:21 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>>>>I'm sort of surprised at your example Mark as the Columbia School of
>>>>the Arts MFA program is exceptional in not being based in an English
>>>>Department; it seems more like the School of the Art Institute of
>>>>Chicago model. Most MFA students earn their stipends teaching English
>>>>101; I'm guessing that the School of the Arts does not offer 101
>>>>classes. Interestingly though, the School does offer its students
>>>>teaching opportunities:
>>>>
>>>>"We provide teacher training through the Writer as Teacher seminar and
>>>>mentoring sessions, and we offer a wide variety of teaching
>>>>opportunities - on and off campus - through the Division's CA/T
>>>>program (Columbia Artist/Teachers), open to all Writing students. We
>>>>prepare students not only for college level teaching, but also for
>>>>leading workshops in primary and secondary schools and community-based
>>>>organizations. In addition, the Division offers students the chance to
>>>>edit, manage, and publish their own national magazine, Columbia: A
>>>>Journal of Literature and Art, as well as other informal publications.
>>>>Students also curate two reading series."
>>>>
>>>>I haven't yet found the part about the guaranteed social cachet and
>>>>middle-class income.
>>>>
>>>>Also it would be interesting to compare how MFA programs advertise
>>>>their financial offers in journals such as American Poetry Review,
>>>>versus website reservations such as you cite. I think there is an
>>>>increasing tendency, with PhD programs anyway, to make a point of
>>>>indicating the difficulty of the job market and to warn prospective
>>>>candidates officially at point of entry. It's all very double-edged.
>>>>
>>>>Mairead
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:05:56 -0500, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>wrote:
>>>> > This from the Columbia School of the Arts website. I'm assuming
>>>> that the
>>>> > situation is no better elsewhere--I suspect that it's in fact worse at
>>>> less
>>>> > well-endowed schools.
>>>> >
>>>> > >Because of the limited availability of University aid, the
>>>>limitations of
>>>> > >federal programs, and the varying costs that individual students
>>>> incur, it
>>>> > >is not always possible to meet each student's demonstrated need. In
>>>> > >addition, the School seeks to ensure that students who rely heavily on
>>>> > >loans to meet their need do not incur such indebtedness that
>>>>they will be
>>>> > >unable to manage repayment following their graduation. Therefore, we
>>>> > >strongly encourage students to explore all options actively, even
>>>> before
>>>> > >their acceptance into the School, in order to develop a
>>>>comprehensive and
>>>> > >realistic plan to support the costs of their graduate study. Please be
>>>> > >aware that fellowship offers are not made to all admitted
>>>> students, even
>>>> > >those requesting consideration for financial aid. The average
>>>>awards that
>>>> > >are offered rarely exceed half the cost of tuition. Incoming
>>>>students are
>>>> > >generally notified of fellowship awards with their acceptance letter.
>>>> Most
>>>> > >students are eligible for the maximum in Stafford loans.
>>>> >
>>>> > The financial aid section goes on at length.
>>>> >
>>>> > The interest on student loans is currently 6%.
>>>> >
>>>> > Columbia estimates fees at $35,000 per year and living expenses at
>>>> $17,430.
>>>> >
>>>> > At 05:34 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>>>> > >Agreeing and disagreeing with Mark:
>>>> > >
>>>> > >I've had experience of 3 (excluding the MFA programs not dealing with
>> >> > >poetry, e.g., at Rhode Island School of Design where I now teach).
>>>> > >The great majority of students in the MFA programs I have knowledge of
>>>> > >do not pay fees but work as teaching assistants for stipends between
>>>> > >$10,000 and $14,000 (my figures are 4-10 years old). I agree with
>>>> > >Mark to some extent in his analogy with the dole. I wrote 2 plays, a
>>>> > >short book, and a lot of bad poems on the dole in my twenties (but the
>>>> > >minute I got married I was cut off without mercy: I wasn't even
>>>> > >eligible for Fas schemes, Ireland's other training ground for artists.
>>>> > > It took me a hell of a long time to recover from the shock of being
>>>> > >cut off the dole -- so long I think they had revised the policy on
>>>> > >married women being ineligible for assistance). The dole has made
>>>> > >life possible for so many artists in Ireland, to a point, but there's
>>>> > >not much dole in America. MFA programs may be a 2-4 year rather
>>>> > >stimulating surrogate dole experience. Time to write. I found it
>>>> > >very valuable.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >I don't really think Mark's example of John Clare as germane. I think
>>>> > >for a lot of poets the questions of how to be a parent, how to be a
>>>> > >citizen, how to be a useful member of a community, how to work at what
>>>> > >one is good at: these are real enough questions. I don't identify
>>>> > >that strongly with John Clare.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >I don't agree either that an MFA purports to guarantee social cachet
>>>> > >and a middle-class income: I've never heard that claim at least.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >And I wouldn't ask either Gertrude Stein or Andre Breton's opinion
>>>> > >about cooking cabbage. And if anyone attempted to discuss such a
>>>> > >subject with me at a social gathering I would walk away.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >Mairead
>>>> > >
>>>> > >On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:59:38 -0500, Mark Weiss
>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> > > > I'm always hesitant to post to Britpo because I'm acutely aware
>>>> that its
>>>> > > > value, certainly for me, is that it's not dominated by USians.
>>>> But I
>>>> > > think I
>>>> > > > can be helpful in this instance, as I've watched with increasing
>>>> dismay the
>>>> > > > results of the academicization of the arts in the US.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > The topic comes up from time to time on all poetry lists.
>>>> Usually any
>>>> > > > critique of the status quo is met by an extraordinary degree of
>>>> evasiveness
>>>> > > > or hostility, as a threat to the daily bread, or at least
>>>>the sense of
>>>> > > moral
>>>> > > > rectitude, of many on the list.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Here's a bit of what I posted last month to Poetryetc, minus the
>>>> parts that
>>>> > > > are too referential to the context of that discussion. I posted
>>>> something
>>>> > > > like the first paragraph to britpo earlier this week, but there's
>>>> plenty of
>>>> > > > fresh meat beyond.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Several things here. First, in the mouths of poets of my kind and
>>>> > >generation
>>>> > > > "academic" has nothing to do with intellectual; it
>>>> > >was, from the
>>>> > >50s into
>>>> > > > the 70s, a convenient name for the then mainstream, which
>>>> > >became
>>>> > >what
>>>> > > > Silliman calls "the school of quietude," despite the fact
>>>> > >that then as
>>>> > >now
>>>> > > > many non-quietudiness types, like Doug, held university positions.
>>>> > >One
>>>> > >could
>>>> > > > even be an acadmic poet without ever passing through the gates
>>>> > > > of
>>>> > >a
>>>> > >university.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >The larger issue is, I think, not how some poets make a
>>>> > > > living and how
>>>> > >much
>>>> > >time it may take away from their writing, but the
>>>> > > > process of
>>>> > >professionalization and homogenization at work in MFA programs.
>>>> > > > The
>>>> > >result,
>>>> > >across the entire spectrum, has been a patholgical degree
>>>> > > > of
>>>> > >predictability--MFA-trained Language poets write more like
>>>> > > > Language
>>>> > >poets
>>>> > >than their langpo teachers, who managed to become poets
>>>> > > > without the
>>>> > >benefit of
>>>> > >several years of workshops, for instance. And the
>>>> > > > same is true for the
>>>> > >endless string of suburban poets filling the designated
>> >> > > > poetry spaces in
>>>> > >the New Yorkeror Poetry.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >What gets attenuated is the
>>>> > > > discovery of craft and its use as a tool for
>>>> > >discovering the world, absent
>>>> > > > any experience working in the world beyond
>>>> > >the schools.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >There's of course
>>>> > > > an enormous ambivalence built into this. I'm aware when
>>>> > >I
>>>> > >publish books that
>>>> > > > if they don't sell well to university libraries and
>>>> > >to
>>>> > >MFAs they won't sell.
>>>> > > > And I also think that it's great that you and
>>>> > >others
>>>> > >don't have to herd
>>>> > > > goats. The problem is that with every graduating
>>>> > >class
>>>> > >there are more
>>>> > > > half-baked late adolescents licensed to call themselves
>>>> > >poets, nine tenths
>>>> > > > of whom will never write anything even mildly useful,
>>>> > >who expect to be able
>>>> > > > to muzzle up to the trough and teach yet another
>>>> > >class how to write
>>>> > > > well-behaved poems of whatever kind, and mediocrity
>>>> > >becomes progressively
>>>> > > > the norm.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >Years ago, when I applied to the MacDowell Colony my friend
>>>> > > > Richard
>>>> > >Elman,
>>>> > >who taught in the Columbia then-proto-MFA program, wrote
>>>> > > > a
>>>> > >recommendation
>>>> > >for me, which he let me read. I was struck by the phrase
>>>> > > > "though he
>>>> > >is
>>>> > >self-taught as a poet..." I told him that wasn't true--I knew
>>>> > > > dozens
>>>> > >of
>>>> > >poets and learned from several, I'd run reading series', edited
>>>> > > > a
>>>> > >magazine,
>>>> > >published my first book, read endlessly, etc. "Listen," he
>>>> > >said,
>>>> > > > "of course it's bullshit.
>>>> > >But it will get you in." It did.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >OK, now back to
>>>> > > > this list. To the extent that the world needs poets at all it
>>>> doesn't need
>>>> > > > them mass-produced, and we could certainly do without most of the
>>>> > > blathering
>>>> > > > of licensed 25 year olds, who now publish each other and
>>>> promote each
>>>> > > > other's work from the classroom or profit-making journals or
>>>> publishing
>>>> > > > houses for which the MFA is an entry requirement for
>>>> employment. And
>>>> > > what do
>>>> > > > we do with all the tenured poets who would have stopped writing if
>>>> they
>>>> > > > hadn't found a sustainable career as poets because they wouldn't
>>>> have been
>>>> > > > sufficiently called to keep on? Someone recently commented
>>>> something to the
>>>> > > > effect (forgive me for garbling) that everyone's a poet at 20, at
>>>> 40 it's a
>>>> > > > different matter. Yes, but the rewards of the current system means
>>>> that
>>>> > > > those who take the poetry career track at 20 are decreasingly
>>>> tested as
>>>> > > they
>>>> > > > approach maturity, and many remain unaware that the making of
>>>> poetry
>>>> > > > requires constant internal testing and questioning. Within the
>>>> universities
>>>> > > > a poet at 20 is likely to be calling himself a poet at 40.
>>>> > > > Since my return to New York from the wilds of San Diego I've found
>>>> > > myself at
>>>> > > > several gatherings of young MFAs. They compared career notes and
>>>> nothing
>>>> > > > else. When I was their age, after the requisite gossip and
>>>> flirtation what
>>>> > > > got talked about was poetry, and information about each of our
>>>> latest
>>>> > > > enthusiasms was passed about. Ties between older and younger
>>>> poets were
>>>> > > > forged that acted as a sort of apprenticeship.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > I'm aware that one of the arguments for the MFA is that it
>>>> levels the
>>>> > > > playing field--presumably even the occasional student too poor to
>>>> > > afford the
>>>> > > > monstrously high fees (in the tens of thousands of pounds a year)
>>>> > > charged in
>>>> > > > the US gets admitted on scholarship, and aspiring poets from
>>>> > > > poetically-impoverished places are spared the expenditure of
>>>> energy and
>>>> > > risk
>>>> > > > needed to make contact with other writers (in exchange for having
>>>> their
>>>> > > > focus sharply restricted), whether through epistolary brashness or
>>>> actually
>>>> > > > moving to say NY or San Francisco. But the reality on the ground,
>>>> even more
>>>> > > > in Britain than in the US, is that these days a John Clare without
>> >> an MFA
>>>> > > > would not be condemned to destitution--he'd live in council
>>>> housing, be
>>>> > > > treated by the national health service, and feed himself
>>>>either from a
>>>> > > > disability pension, or, in the case of those not so incapacitated
>>>> as Clare,
>>>> > > > earn a minor but sufficient living, under modern rules of
>>>> employment,
>>>> > > > complete with vacation time that in the US is for most people only
>>>> a dream.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > What the MFA purports to guarantee (and there are far too many
>>>> MFAs in the
>>>> > > > US to make that claim more than a cruel joke) is social cachet and
>>>> a middle
>>>> > > > class income.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Mark
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > At 08:18 AM 2/6/2005, cris cheek wrote:
>>>> > > > Hi Tim,
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > sorry. I didn't think it defensiveness on my part. More an
>>>>offering of
>>>> > > > a conundrum, which sought to muddy the waters so that actual work
>>>> could
>>>> > > > enter the frame of discussion by example. I did want to get to
>>>> names to
>>>> > > > try to understand who was actually being referred to. Although I'll
>>>> > > > fully accept the charge of tired listing. I was, obviously wrongly,
>>>> > > > wondering if a conflation of working in academia and
>>>>teaching criteria
>>>> > > > developed through personal practice might not be the point of
>>>> > > > conflation. Clearly, as in my own example, the majority of those on
>>>> > > > that list had lengthy histories of practice before teaching,
>>>> although
>>>> > > > many also studied as undergraduates when young. The lists were
>>>> quite
>>>> > > > deliberately intended to include some 'ringers' and deploy
>>>> > > > inconsistencies in order to find out to whom the mesh
>>>>between academic
>>>> > > > verse and avant &c was referring. Also to include for example two
>>>> > > > generations of those broadly considered lang-po in the US
>>>> context and
>>>> > > > whatever (linguistically innovative if that works) likewise in the
>>>> > > > British ones.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > I do agree that the grounds from which many newer, younger
>>>> (whatever)
>>>> > > > poets are emerging are creative writing courses and their orbital
>>>> > > > activities in further education. Many of the latter are now in
>>>> > > > universities (on both sides of the pond) - and they are nothing
>>>> if not
>>>> > > > quick to spot financial opportunities (the universities i mean).
>>>> > > > Creative Writing courses have become a cash cow and increased in
>>>> number
>>>> > > > over the past few years dramatically. I'm not saying this is a good
>>>> > > > thing per se either, but it is undeniably so. Generally, which of
>>>> > > > course i use advisedly, many of those who are graduating from these
>>>> > > > courses are going on into MA and even PhD pursuits.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > It *does mean that poets have been acculturated to producing
>>>> critical
>>>> > > > materials and reflexive writing in close relation to or even as
>>>> part of
>>>> > > > their emergent writing practice. So critical tools, vocabularies,
>>>> > > > perspectives, strategies (from philosophy, literature, cultural
>>>> > > > studies, performance studies, media studies, bio-informatics . .
>>>> .) are
>>>> > > > becoming integral to a poet's experience of language. Reading and
>>>> > > > Writing both are certainly changing and with the growing number
>>>> going
>>>> > > > on into further education the readership is changing also.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > One reason, perhaps, why taste tzars such as Don Patterson
>>>>are getting
>>>> > > > publicly jittery is that the texts available for further
>>>>education are
>>>> > > > becoming increasingly numerous from those kinds of poets whose
>>>> > > > practices and critical perspectives are lang-po and ling-inno-po
>>>> (among
>>>> > > > the many variant po in evidence) grounded, partly since it is those
>>>> > > > poetries whose poetics most form an energisiing mesh with other
>>>> > > > critical discourses as listed in brackets above. You know,
>>>>it's pretty
>>>> > > > simple. To whom is one going to refer to and to differ from
>>>> (classic
>>>> > > > avant-garde strategies). That does accept the existence of quite
>>>> > > > differing readerships, but that's surely nothing new. What might be
>> >> > > > warranted is a kind of new punk poetry to counter too much of the
>>>> > > > dominance from today's scriptoria.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Being on such courses do allow for reading of poetries that
>>>>offer more
>>>> > > > resistance and are less easily absorbed (PERHAPS, perhaps). Many
>>>> > > > readers, not allowed such luxury of shared interpretations
>>>>(outside of
>>>> > > > the experience of belonging to a book group) cannot give over their
>>>> > > > waking hours to such sustained mulling (perhaps, perhaps).
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > The flavor of a particular program is strongly inflected by its key
>>>> > > > poet(s). It'll be interesting, to take one obvious example,
>>>>to see how
>>>> > > > writing emerging from Buffalo change over to the coming
>>>>years, between
>>>> > > > Charles Bernsein's and Steve McCaffery's authored climates
>>>>of research
>>>> > > > and umbrellas of enthusiasm. Another example is the shift from Burt
>>>> > > > Kimmelman and Sylvester Pollet to Ben Friedlander and Steve
>>>> Evans at
>>>> > > > Orono (even though Burt and Sylvester remain, Ben and Steve are
>>>> > > > bringing other energies and enthusiasms into play). It isn't
>>>> exactly
>>>> > > > big thinking to point this out I realise that. One might take the
>>>> > > > current clutch of young poets active around Birkbeck as another
>>>> example
>>>> > > > over here or the past decade of fierce enquiry at Dartington. I do
>>>> > > > think this is going on in the UK as much as in the US now. The
>>>> scale
>>>> > > > and intensity differ for sure but with Dartington, Exeter, Edge
>>>> Hill,
>>>> > > > Warwick, Bangor, Southampton, Roehampton, Royal Holloway, UEA,
>>>> > > > Manchester Metropolitan, Salford . . . and many others the
>>>>burgeoning
>>>> > > > US model of the Writer's House is likely to follow on.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Staying in education, living off small research
>>>>studentships and so on
>>>> > > > has (perhaps perhaps) supplanted the dole as one way to develop a
>>>> > > > writing practice in the largely commercially non-viable worlds of
>>>> > > > contemporary poetry (given rare exceptions). There are real
>>>> problems
>>>> > > > too. One is that writing can become too pedagogically inclined,
>>>> writing
>>>> > > > what students might usefully study as example. Another is that of
>>>> > > > getting sucked into teaching without ever having much experience of
>>>> > > > outside, in other words skipping that vital phase of resistance and
>>>> > > > struggle, developing a practice outside the institutions. I've
>>>> > > > certainly witnessed examples like that in the US in recent
>>>> months and
>>>> > > > maybe that produces the efficient and yet smug poetry that you
>>>> might be
>>>> > > > trying to get at?
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > love and love
>>>> > > > cris
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>
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>><body>
>>That stings, Lawrence. I picked up the phrase from an earlier post. Meant
>>it as a stand-in for all the informal environments in which people hone
>>their skills.<br><br>
>>I understand the need that many have for a structured, non-threatening
>>environment for exchange, given the complexity of their lives.<br><br>
>>In the US it's become common for groups of writers or would-be writers to
>>form freestanding writers groups. They often serve as an alternative to
>>beery environments like the Mermaid. Many are women-only. The members
>>(regardless of the gender mix of a given group) usually have day
>>jobs and often children. Some of these groups have gone on for
>>years.<br><br>
>>Reading groups are also increasingly popular--anything from the latest
>>best-seller to the arcane. For several years in the eighties and early
>>nineties I was in such a group with, among others, Armand Schwerner, Hugh
>>Seidman, the anthropologist Susan Slyomovics, Mike Heller, a bunch of
>>other people. We read Vygotsky, Aztec Poetry, Victor Turner, a lot of
>>other stuff--a book a month. The focus was always on language and
>>practice, however far afield the readings might seem.<br><br>
>>What I found useful about the reading group is that it brought people of
>>different ages and extremely varied experience and expertise together to
>>discuss their enthusiasms. Willard Gingerich, a scholar and translator of
>>Aztec poetry, for instance, was brought in by a member who knew
>>him.<br><br>
>>Academic writing programs tend to be less various in their membership.
>>Mairead will probably tell me I'm wrong, but my impression is that most
>>of the students are in their twenties, and usually the only older person
>>in the room is the teacher. In informal settings writers have always
>>sharpened their skills and thoughts through contact with their
>>contemporaries, but not exclusively. What I've always found exhilarating
>>about non-institutional groups of any kind of artists is the mix of
>>different ages and experiences. In those environments the age-span of
>>one's cohort can be 40 years. Fraught with the same tensions as all
>>friendships, but nonetheless a way in which accumulated wisdom could be
>>passed on.<br><br>
>>Mark<br><br>
>>At 10:06 AM 2/10/2005, Lawrence Upton wrote:<br>
>><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font size=2>let's hear it for
>>pub-based apprenticeships in writing<br>
>></font> <br>
>><font size=2>L<br>
>></font>
>><dl>
>><dd><font face="arial" size=2>-----Original Message-----</b><br>
>>
>><dd>From: </b>Mark Weiss
>><<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>
>>><br>
>>
>><dd>To:
>></b><a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">
>>[log in to unmask]</a>
>><<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">
>>[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
>>
>><dd>Date: </b>10 February 2005 14:59<br>
>>
>><dd>Subject: </b>Re: academic verse PS<br><br>
>></font>
>><dd>All graduate education in the US carries with it social cachet,
>>certainly as opposed to the older solitary learning and pub-based
>>apprenticeships in writing. I don't know anyone who went for an MFA who
>>didn't see it as a career-builder. Here are a couple of paragraphs from
>>Cornell's site. What do you think they imply?<br><br>
>>
>><dd><font size=2>Will I be able to get a college or university-level
>>teaching position with a Cornell M.F.A. degree?</b></font> <br><br>
>>
>><dd><font size=2>Writers with Cornell M.F.A. degrees and a national
>>publication record have found tenure-track positions at colleges such as
>>the The University of Arizona, the University of California at Santa
>>Cruz, the University of Michigan, the University of Minnesota, University
>>of Montana, Oregon State University, Penn State University, the
>>University of Pittsburgh, Syracuse University, Vanderbilt University, and
>>the University of Wisconsin,. Other Cornell M.F.A.s have found temporary
>>or visiting-writer positions at places such as Boston College, Brown,
>>Bucknell, Colgate, Howard, Stanford, Trinity (Hartford), and
>>Hobart-William Smith.<br>
>>
>><dd>Will I increase my chances of finding a university-level teaching
>>position if I earn both an M.F.A. degree and a Ph.D.?</b></font>
>><br><br>
>>
>><dd><font size=2>Not necessarily. If you have a Cornell M.F.A. degree and
>>some kind of publication record, there is a good chance you will be
>>competitive when you apply for university or college level teaching
>>positions. If you want to enter the job market as a scholar as well as a
>>creative writer, you might want to earn two degrees.<br><br>
>></font>
>><dd>Cornell, by the way, doesn't allow MFA students to teach until their
>>second year, and they are required to take a pedagogy course
>>first.<br><br>
>>
>><dd>I have no idea what's typical or not--it's not my world. But I
>>certainly hear the stories. <br><br>
>>
>><dd>Mark <br><br>
>>
>><dd>At 07:21 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:<br>
>><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
>><dd>I'm sort of surprised at your example Mark as the Columbia School
>>of<br>
>>
>><dd>the Arts MFA program is exceptional in not being based in an
>>English<br>
>>
>><dd>Department; it seems more like the School of the Art Institute
>>of<br>
>>
>><dd>Chicago model. Most MFA students earn their stipends teaching
>>English<br>
>>
>><dd>101; I'm guessing that the School of the Arts does not offer 101<br>
>>
>><dd>classes. Interestingly though, the School does offer its
>>students<br>
>>
>><dd>teaching opportunities:<br><br>
>>
>><dd>"We provide teacher training through the Writer as Teacher
>>seminar and<br>
>>
>><dd>mentoring sessions, and we offer a wide variety of teaching<br>
>>
>><dd>opportunities - on and off campus - through the Division's CA/T<br>
>>
>><dd>program (Columbia Artist/Teachers), open to all Writing students.
>>We<br>
>>
>><dd>prepare students not only for college level teaching, but also
>>for<br>
>>
>><dd>leading workshops in primary and secondary schools and
>>community-based<br>
>>
>><dd>organizations. In addition, the Division offers students the chance
>>to<br>
>>
>><dd>edit, manage, and publish their own national magazine, Columbia:
>>A<br>
>>
>><dd>Journal of Literature and Art, as well as other informal
>>publications.<br>
>>
>><dd>Students also curate two reading series."<br>
>><br>
>>
>><dd>I haven't yet found the part about the guaranteed social cachet
>>and<br>
>>
>><dd>middle-class income.<br><br>
>>
>><dd>Also it would be interesting to compare how MFA programs
>>advertise<br>
>>
>><dd>their financial offers in journals such as American Poetry
>>Review,<br>
>>
>><dd>versus website reservations such as you cite. I think there is
>>an<br>
>>
>><dd>increasing tendency, with PhD programs anyway, to make a point
>>of<br>
>>
>><dd>indicating the difficulty of the job market and to warn
>>prospective<br>
>>
>><dd>candidates officially at point of entry. It's all very
>>double-edged.<br><br>
>>
>><dd>Mairead<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>
>><dd>On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:05:56 -0500, Mark Weiss
>><[log in to unmask]> wrote:<br>
>>
>><dd>> This from the Columbia School of the Arts website. I'm assuming
>>that the<br>
>>
>><dd>> situation is no better elsewhere--I suspect that it's in fact
>>worse at less<br>
>>
>><dd>> well-endowed schools.<br>
>>
>><dd>> <br>
>>
>><dd>> >Because of the limited availability of University aid, the
>>limitations of<br>
>>
>><dd>> >federal programs, and the varying costs that individual
>>students incur, it<br>
>>
>><dd>> >is not always possible to meet each student's demonstrated
>>need. In<br>
>>
>><dd>> >addition, the School seeks to ensure that students who rely
>>heavily on<br>
>>
>><dd>> >loans to meet their need do not incur such indebtedness that
>>they will be<br>
>>
>><dd>> >unable to manage repayment following their graduation.
>>Therefore, we<br>
>>
>><dd>> >strongly encourage students to explore all options actively,
>>even before<br>
>>
>><dd>> >their acceptance into the School, in order to develop a
>>comprehensive and<br>
>>
>><dd>> >realistic plan to support the costs of their graduate study.
>>Please be<br>
>>
>><dd>> >aware that fellowship offers are not made to all admitted
>>students, even<br>
>>
>><dd>> >those requesting consideration for financial aid. The
>>average awards that<br>
>>
>><dd>> >are offered rarely exceed half the cost of tuition. Incoming
>>students are<br>
>>
>><dd>> >generally notified of fellowship awards with their
>>acceptance letter. Most<br>
>>
>><dd>> >students are eligible for the maximum in Stafford
>>loans.<br>
>>
>><dd>> <br>
>>
>><dd>> The financial aid section goes on at length.<br>
>>
>><dd>> <br>
>>
>><dd>> The interest on student loans is currently 6%.<br>
>>
>><dd>> <br>
>>
>><dd>> Columbia estimates fees at $35,000 per year and living expenses
>>at $17,430.<br>
>>
>><dd>> <br>
>>
>><dd>> At 05:34 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:<br>
>>
>><dd>> >Agreeing and disagreeing with Mark:<br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> >I've had experience of 3 (excluding the MFA programs not
>>dealing with<br>
>>
>><dd>> >poetry, e.g., at Rhode Island School of Design where I now
>>teach).<br>
>>
>><dd>> >The great majority of students in the MFA programs I have
>>knowledge of<br>
>>
>><dd>> >do not pay fees but work as teaching assistants for stipends
>>between<br>
>>
>><dd>> >$10,000 and $14,000 (my figures are 4-10 years
>>old). I agree with<br>
>>
>><dd>> >Mark to some extent in his analogy with the dole. I
>>wrote 2 plays, a<br>
>>
>><dd>> >short book, and a lot of bad poems on the dole in my
>>twenties (but the<br>
>>
>><dd>> >minute I got married I was cut off without mercy: I wasn't
>>even<br>
>>
>><dd>> >eligible for Fas schemes, Ireland's other training ground
>>for artists.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > It took me a hell of a long time to recover from the
>>shock of being<br>
>>
>><dd>> >cut off the dole -- so long I think they had revised the
>>policy on<br>
>>
>><dd>> >married women being ineligible for assistance). The
>>dole has made<br>
>>
>><dd>> >life possible for so many artists in Ireland, to a point,
>>but there's<br>
>>
>><dd>> >not much dole in America. MFA programs may be a 2-4
>>year rather<br>
>>
>><dd>> >stimulating surrogate dole experience. Time to
>>write. I found it<br>
>>
>><dd>> >very valuable.<br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> >I don't really think Mark's example of John Clare as
>>germane. I think<br>
>>
>><dd>> >for a lot of poets the questions of how to be a parent, how
>>to be a<br>
>>
>><dd>> >citizen, how to be a useful member of a community, how to
>>work at what<br>
>>
>><dd>> >one is good at: these are real enough questions. I
>>don't identify<br>
>>
>><dd>> >that strongly with John Clare.<br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> >I don't agree either that an MFA purports to guarantee
>>social cachet<br>
>>
>><dd>> >and a middle-class income: I've never heard that claim at
>>least.<br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> >And I wouldn't ask either Gertrude Stein or Andre Breton's
>>opinion<br>
>>
>><dd>> >about cooking cabbage. And if anyone attempted to
>>discuss such a<br>
>>
>><dd>> >subject with me at a social gathering I would walk
>>away.<br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> >Mairead<br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> >On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:59:38 -0500, Mark Weiss
>><[log in to unmask]> wrote:<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > I'm always hesitant to post to Britpo because I'm
>>acutely aware that its<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > value, certainly for me, is that it's not dominated by
>>USians. But I<br>
>>
>><dd>> > think I<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > can be helpful in this instance, as I've watched with
>>increasing dismay the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > results of the academicization of the arts in the
>>US.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > The topic comes up from time to time on all poetry
>>lists. Usually any<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > critique of the status quo is met by an extraordinary
>>degree of evasiveness<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > or hostility, as a threat to the daily bread, or at
>>least the sense of<br>
>>
>><dd>> > moral<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > rectitude, of many on the list.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Here's a bit of what I posted last month to Poetryetc,
>>minus the parts that<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > are too referential to the context of that discussion.
>>I posted something<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > like the first paragraph to britpo earlier this week,
>>but there's plenty of<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > fresh meat beyond.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Several things here. First, in the mouths of poets of
>>my kind and<br>
>>
>><dd>> >generation<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > "academic" has nothing to do with
>>intellectual; it<br>
>>
>><dd>> >was, from the<br>
>>
>><dd>> >50s into<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > the 70s, a convenient name for the then mainstream,
>>which<br>
>>
>><dd>> >became<br>
>>
>><dd>> >what<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Silliman calls "the school of quietude,"
>>despite the fact<br>
>>
>><dd>> >that then as<br>
>>
>><dd>> >now<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > many non-quietudiness types, like Doug, held
>>university positions.<br>
>>
>><dd>> >One<br>
>>
>><dd>> >could<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > even be an acadmic poet without ever passing through
>>the gates<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > of<br>
>>
>><dd>> >a<br>
>>
>><dd>> >university.<br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> >The larger issue is, I think, not how some poets make a<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > living and how<br>
>>
>><dd>> >much<br>
>>
>><dd>> >time it may take away from their writing, but the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > process of<br>
>>
>><dd>> >professionalization and homogenization at work in MFA
>>programs.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > The<br>
>>
>><dd>> >result,<br>
>>
>><dd>> >across the entire spectrum, has been a patholgical
>>degree<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > of<br>
>>
>><dd>> >predictability--MFA-trained Language poets write more
>>like<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Language<br>
>>
>><dd>> >poets<br>
>>
>><dd>> >than their langpo teachers, who managed to become poets<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > without the<br>
>>
>><dd>> >benefit of<br>
>>
>><dd>> >several years of workshops, for instance. And the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > same is true for the<br>
>>
>><dd>> >endless string of suburban poets filling the designated<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > poetry spaces in<br>
>>
>><dd>> >the New Yorkeror Poetry.<br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> >What gets attenuated is the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > discovery of craft and its use as a tool for<br>
>>
>><dd>> >discovering the world, absent<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > any experience working in the world beyond<br>
>>
>><dd>> >the schools.<br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> >There's of course<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > an enormous ambivalence built into this. I'm aware
>>when<br>
>>
>><dd>> >I<br>
>>
>><dd>> >publish books that<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > if they don't sell well to university libraries
>>and<br>
>>
>><dd>> >to<br>
>>
>><dd>> >MFAs they won't sell.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > And I also think that it's great that you and<br>
>>
>><dd>> >others<br>
>>
>><dd>> >don't have to herd<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > goats. The problem is that with every graduating<br>
>>
>><dd>> >class<br>
>>
>><dd>> >there are more<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > half-baked late adolescents licensed to call
>>themselves<br>
>>
>><dd>> >poets, nine tenths<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > of whom will never write anything even mildly
>>useful,<br>
>>
>><dd>> >who expect to be able<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > to muzzle up to the trough and teach yet another<br>
>>
>><dd>> >class how to write<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > well-behaved poems of whatever kind, and
>>mediocrity<br>
>>
>><dd>> >becomes progressively<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > the norm.<br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> >Years ago, when I applied to the MacDowell Colony my
>>friend<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Richard<br>
>>
>><dd>> >Elman,<br>
>>
>><dd>> >who taught in the Columbia then-proto-MFA program,
>>wrote<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > a<br>
>>
>><dd>> >recommendation<br>
>>
>><dd>> >for me, which he let me read. I was struck by the
>>phrase<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > "though he<br>
>>
>><dd>> >is<br>
>>
>><dd>> >self-taught as a poet..." I told him that wasn't
>>true--I knew<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > dozens<br>
>>
>><dd>> >of<br>
>>
>><dd>> >poets and learned from several, I'd run reading series',
>>edited<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > a<br>
>>
>><dd>> >magazine,<br>
>>
>><dd>> >published my first book, read endlessly, etc.
>>"Listen," he<br>
>>
>><dd>> >said,<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > "of course it's bullshit.<br>
>>
>><dd>> >But it will get you in." It did.<br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> ><br>
>>
>><dd>> >OK, now back to<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > this list. To the extent that the world needs poets at
>>all it doesn't need<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > them mass-produced, and we could certainly do without
>>most of the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > blathering<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > of licensed 25 year olds, who now publish each other
>>and promote each<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > other's work from the classroom or profit-making
>>journals or publishing<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > houses for which the MFA is an entry requirement for
>>employment. And<br>
>>
>><dd>> > what do<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > we do with all the tenured poets who would have
>>stopped writing if they<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > hadn't found a sustainable career as poets because
>>they wouldn't have been<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > sufficiently called to keep on? Someone recently
>>commented something to the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > effect (forgive me for garbling) that everyone's a
>>poet at 20, at 40 it's a<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > different matter. Yes, but the rewards of the current
>>system means that<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > those who take the poetry career track at 20 are
>>decreasingly tested as<br>
>>
>><dd>> > they<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > approach maturity, and many remain unaware that the
>>making of poetry<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > requires constant internal testing and questioning.
>>Within the universities<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > a poet at 20 is likely to be calling himself a poet at
>>40.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Since my return to New York from the wilds of San
>>Diego I've found<br>
>>
>><dd>> > myself at<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > several gatherings of young MFAs. They compared career
>>notes and nothing<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > else. When I was their age, after the requisite gossip
>>and flirtation what<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > got talked about was poetry, and information about
>>each of our latest<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > enthusiasms was passed about. Ties between older
>>and younger poets were<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > forged that acted as a sort of apprenticeship.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > I'm aware that one of the arguments for the MFA is
>>that it levels the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > playing field--presumably even the occasional student
>>too poor to<br>
>>
>><dd>> > afford the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > monstrously high fees (in the tens of thousands of
>>pounds a year)<br>
>>
>><dd>> > charged in<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > the US gets admitted on scholarship, and aspiring
>>poets from<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > poetically-impoverished places are spared the
>>expenditure of energy and<br>
>>
>><dd>> > risk<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > needed to make contact with other writers (in exchange
>>for having their<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > focus sharply restricted), whether through epistolary
>>brashness or actually<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > moving to say NY or San Francisco. But the reality on
>>the ground, even more<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > in Britain than in the US, is that these days a John
>>Clare without an MFA<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > would not be condemned to destitution--he'd live in
>>council housing, be<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > treated by the national health service, and feed
>>himself either from a<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > disability pension, or, in the case of those not so
>>incapacitated as Clare,<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > earn a minor but sufficient living, under modern rules
>>of employment,<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > complete with vacation time that in the US is for most
>>people only a dream.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > What the MFA purports to guarantee (and there are far
>>too many MFAs in the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > US to make that claim more than a cruel joke) is
>>social cachet and a middle<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > class income.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Mark<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > At 08:18 AM 2/6/2005, cris cheek wrote:<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Hi Tim,<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > sorry. I didn't think it defensiveness on my part.
>>More an offering of<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > a conundrum, which sought to muddy the waters so that
>>actual work could<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > enter the frame of discussion by example. I did want
>>to get to names to<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > try to understand who was actually being referred to.
>>Although I'll<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > fully accept the charge of tired listing. I was,
>>obviously wrongly,<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > wondering if a conflation of working in academia and
>>teaching criteria<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > developed through personal practice might not be the
>>point of<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > conflation. Clearly, as in my own example, the
>>majority of those on<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > that list had lengthy histories of practice before
>>teaching, although<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > many also studied as undergraduates when young. The
>>lists were quite<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > deliberately intended to include some 'ringers' and
>>deploy<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > inconsistencies in order to find out to whom the mesh
>>between academic<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > verse and avant &c was referring. Also to include
>>for example two<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > generations of those broadly considered lang-po in the
>>US context and<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > whatever (linguistically innovative if that works)
>>likewise in the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > British ones.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > I do agree that the grounds from which many newer,
>>younger (whatever)<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > poets are emerging are creative writing courses and
>>their orbital<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > activities in further education. Many of the latter
>>are now in<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > universities (on both sides of the pond) - and
>>they are nothing if not<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > quick to spot financial opportunities (the
>>universities i mean).<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Creative Writing courses have become a cash cow and
>>increased in number<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > over the past few years dramatically. I'm not saying
>>this is a good<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > thing per se either, but it is undeniably so.
>>Generally, which of<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > course i use advisedly, many of those who are
>>graduating from these<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > courses are going on into MA and even PhD
>>pursuits.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > It *does mean that poets have been acculturated to
>>producing critical<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > materials and reflexive writing in close relation to
>>or even as part of<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > their emergent writing practice. So critical tools,
>>vocabularies,<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > perspectives, strategies (from philosophy, literature,
>>cultural<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > studies, performance studies, media studies,
>>bio-informatics . . .) are<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > becoming integral to a poet's experience of language.
>>Reading and<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Writing both are certainly changing and with the
>>growing number going<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > on into further education the readership is changing
>>also.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > One reason, perhaps, why taste tzars such as Don
>>Patterson are getting<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > publicly jittery is that the texts available for
>>further education are<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > becoming increasingly numerous from those kinds of
>>poets whose<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > practices and critical perspectives are lang-po and
>>ling-inno-po (among<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > the many variant po in evidence) grounded, partly
>>since it is those<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > poetries whose poetics most form an energisiing mesh
>>with other<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > critical discourses as listed in brackets above. You
>>know, it's pretty<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > simple. To whom is one going to refer to and to differ
>>from (classic<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > avant-garde strategies). That does accept the
>>existence of quite<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > differing readerships, but that's surely nothing new.
>>What might be<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > warranted is a kind of new punk poetry to counter too
>>much of the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > dominance from today's scriptoria.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Being on such courses do allow for reading of poetries
>>that offer more<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > resistance and are less easily absorbed (PERHAPS,
>>perhaps). Many<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > readers, not allowed such luxury of shared
>>interpretations (outside of<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > the experience of belonging to a book group) cannot
>>give over their<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > waking hours to such sustained mulling (perhaps,
>>perhaps).<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > The flavor of a particular program is strongly
>>inflected by its key<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > poet(s). It'll be interesting, to take one obvious
>>example, to see how<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > writing emerging from Buffalo change over to the
>>coming years, between<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Charles Bernsein's and Steve McCaffery's authored
>>climates of research<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > and umbrellas of enthusiasm. Another example is the
>>shift from Burt<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Kimmelman and Sylvester Pollet to Ben Friedlander and
>>Steve Evans at<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Orono (even though Burt and Sylvester remain, Ben and
>>Steve are<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > bringing other energies and enthusiasms into play). It
>>isn't exactly<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > big thinking to point this out I realise that. One
>>might take the<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > current clutch of young poets active around Birkbeck
>>as another example<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > over here or the past decade of fierce enquiry at
>>Dartington. I do<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > think this is going on in the UK as much as in the US
>>now. The scale<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > and intensity differ for sure but with Dartington,
>>Exeter, Edge Hill,<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Warwick, Bangor, Southampton, Roehampton, Royal
>>Holloway, UEA,<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Manchester Metropolitan, Salford . . . and many
>>others the burgeoning<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > US model of the Writer's House is likely to follow
>>on.<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > Staying in education, living off small research
>>studentships and so on<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > has (perhaps perhaps) supplanted the dole as one way
>>to develop a<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > writing practice in the largely commercially
>>non-viable worlds of<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > contemporary poetry (given rare exceptions). There are
>>real problems<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > too. One is that writing can become too pedagogically
>>inclined, writing<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > what students might usefully study as example. Another
>>is that of<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > getting sucked into teaching without ever having much
>>experience of<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > outside, in other words skipping that vital phase of
>>resistance and<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > struggle, developing a practice outside the
>>institutions. I've<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > certainly witnessed examples like that in the US in
>>recent months and<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > maybe that produces the efficient and yet smug poetry
>>that you might be<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > trying to get at?<br>
>>
>><dd>> > ><br>
>>
>><dd>> > > love and love<br>
>>
>><dd>> > > cris<br>
>>
>><dd>> <br>
>>
>><dd>> </blockquote>
>></dl></blockquote></body>
>></html>
>>
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