This time I agree with you Mark: though in my case I was usually the
oldest person in the room, older than the teacher. There was some
range of age but most students were in their 20s/early 30s. My own
undergraduate students here at RISD have pointed out one value of
poetry readings that I wasn't alert to: that they bring together
people of different ages.
Mairead
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:39:27 -0500, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> That stings, Lawrence. I picked up the phrase from an earlier post. Meant it
> as a stand-in for all the informal environments in which people hone their
> skills.
>
> I understand the need that many have for a structured, non-threatening
> environment for exchange, given the complexity of their lives.
>
> In the US it's become common for groups of writers or would-be writers to
> form freestanding writers groups. They often serve as an alternative to
> beery environments like the Mermaid. Many are women-only. The members
> (regardless of the gender mix of a given group) usually have day jobs and
> often children. Some of these groups have gone on for years.
>
> Reading groups are also increasingly popular--anything from the latest
> best-seller to the arcane. For several years in the eighties and early
> nineties I was in such a group with, among others, Armand Schwerner, Hugh
> Seidman, the anthropologist Susan Slyomovics, Mike Heller, a bunch of other
> people. We read Vygotsky, Aztec Poetry, Victor Turner, a lot of other
> stuff--a book a month. The focus was always on language and practice,
> however far afield the readings might seem.
>
> What I found useful about the reading group is that it brought people of
> different ages and extremely varied experience and expertise together to
> discuss their enthusiasms. Willard Gingerich, a scholar and translator of
> Aztec poetry, for instance, was brought in by a member who knew him.
>
> Academic writing programs tend to be less various in their membership.
> Mairead will probably tell me I'm wrong, but my impression is that most of
> the students are in their twenties, and usually the only older person in the
> room is the teacher. In informal settings writers have always sharpened
> their skills and thoughts through contact with their contemporaries, but not
> exclusively. What I've always found exhilarating about non-institutional
> groups of any kind of artists is the mix of different ages and experiences.
> In those environments the age-span of one's cohort can be 40 years. Fraught
> with the same tensions as all friendships, but nonetheless a way in which
> accumulated wisdom could be passed on.
>
> Mark
>
>
> At 10:06 AM 2/10/2005, Lawrence Upton wrote:
> let's hear it for pub-based apprenticeships in writing
>
> L
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask] >
> To: [log in to unmask] < [log in to unmask]>
> Date: 10 February 2005 14:59
> Subject: Re: academic verse PS
>
> From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask] >
> To: [log in to unmask] < [log in to unmask]>
> Date: 10 February 2005 14:59
> Subject: Re: academic verse PS
>
> All graduate education in the US carries with it social cachet, certainly as
> opposed to the older solitary learning and pub-based apprenticeships in
> writing. I don't know anyone who went for an MFA who didn't see it as a
> career-builder. Here are a couple of paragraphs from Cornell's site. What do
> you think they imply?
>
> Will I be able to get a college or university-level teaching position with a
> Cornell M.F.A. degree?
>
> Writers with Cornell M.F.A. degrees and a national publication record have
> found tenure-track positions at colleges such as the The University of
> Arizona, the University of California at Santa Cruz, the University of
> Michigan, the University of Minnesota, University of Montana, Oregon State
> University, Penn State University, the University of Pittsburgh, Syracuse
> University, Vanderbilt University, and the University of Wisconsin,. Other
> Cornell M.F.A.s have found temporary or visiting-writer positions at places
> such as Boston College, Brown, Bucknell, Colgate, Howard, Stanford, Trinity
> (Hartford), and Hobart-William Smith.
> Will I increase my chances of finding a university-level teaching position
> if I earn both an M.F.A. degree and a Ph.D.?
>
> Will I increase my chances of finding a university-level teaching position
> if I earn both an M.F.A. degree and a Ph.D.?
>
> Not necessarily. If you have a Cornell M.F.A. degree and some kind of
> publication record, there is a good chance you will be competitive when you
> apply for university or college level teaching positions. If you want to
> enter the job market as a scholar as well as a creative writer, you might
> want to earn two degrees.
>
> Cornell, by the way, doesn't allow MFA students to teach until their second
> year, and they are required to take a pedagogy course first.
>
> I have no idea what's typical or not--it's not my world. But I certainly
> hear the stories.
>
> Mark
>
> At 07:21 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
> I'm sort of surprised at your example Mark as the Columbia School of
> the Arts MFA program is exceptional in not being based in an English
> Department; it seems more like the School of the Art Institute of
> Chicago model. Most MFA students earn their stipends teaching English
> 101; I'm guessing that the School of the Arts does not offer 101
> classes. Interestingly though, the School does offer its students
> teaching opportunities:
>
> "We provide teacher training through the Writer as Teacher seminar and
> mentoring sessions, and we offer a wide variety of teaching
> opportunities - on and off campus - through the Division's CA/T
> program (Columbia Artist/Teachers), open to all Writing students. We
> prepare students not only for college level teaching, but also for
> leading workshops in primary and secondary schools and community-based
> organizations. In addition, the Division offers students the chance to
> edit, manage, and publish their own national magazine, Columbia: A
> Journal of Literature and Art, as well as other informal publications.
> Students also curate two reading series."
>
> I haven't yet found the part about the guaranteed social cachet and
> middle-class income.
>
> Also it would be interesting to compare how MFA programs advertise
> their financial offers in journals such as American Poetry Review,
> versus website reservations such as you cite. I think there is an
> increasing tendency, with PhD programs anyway, to make a point of
> indicating the difficulty of the job market and to warn prospective
> candidates officially at point of entry. It's all very double-edged.
>
> Mairead
>
>
>
> On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:05:56 -0500, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > This from the Columbia School of the Arts website. I'm assuming that the
> > situation is no better elsewhere--I suspect that it's in fact worse at
> less
> > well-endowed schools.
> >
> > >Because of the limited availability of University aid, the limitations of
> > >federal programs, and the varying costs that individual students incur,
> it
> > >is not always possible to meet each student's demonstrated need. In
> > >addition, the School seeks to ensure that students who rely heavily on
> > >loans to meet their need do not incur such indebtedness that they will be
> > >unable to manage repayment following their graduation. Therefore, we
> > >strongly encourage students to explore all options actively, even before
> > >their acceptance into the School, in order to develop a comprehensive and
> > >realistic plan to support the costs of their graduate study. Please be
> > >aware that fellowship offers are not made to all admitted students, even
> > >those requesting consideration for financial aid. The average awards that
> > >are offered rarely exceed half the cost of tuition. Incoming students are
> > >generally notified of fellowship awards with their acceptance letter.
> Most
> > >students are eligible for the maximum in Stafford loans.
> >
> > The financial aid section goes on at length.
> >
> > The interest on student loans is currently 6%.
> >
> > Columbia estimates fees at $35,000 per year and living expenses at
> $17,430.
> >
> > At 05:34 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
> > >Agreeing and disagreeing with Mark:
> > >
> > >I've had experience of 3 (excluding the MFA programs not dealing with
> > >poetry, e.g., at Rhode Island School of Design where I now teach).
> > >The great majority of students in the MFA programs I have knowledge of
> > >do not pay fees but work as teaching assistants for stipends between
> > >$10,000 and $14,000 (my figures are 4-10 years old). I agree with
> > >Mark to some extent in his analogy with the dole. I wrote 2 plays, a
> > >short book, and a lot of bad poems on the dole in my twenties (but the
> > >minute I got married I was cut off without mercy: I wasn't even
> > >eligible for Fas schemes, Ireland's other training ground for artists.
> > > It took me a hell of a long time to recover from the shock of being
> > >cut off the dole -- so long I think they had revised the policy on
> > >married women being ineligible for assistance). The dole has made
> > >life possible for so many artists in Ireland, to a point, but there's
> > >not much dole in America. MFA programs may be a 2-4 year rather
> > >stimulating surrogate dole experience. Time to write. I found it
> > >very valuable.
> > >
> > >I don't really think Mark's example of John Clare as germane. I think
> > >for a lot of poets the questions of how to be a parent, how to be a
> > >citizen, how to be a useful member of a community, how to work at what
> > >one is good at: these are real enough questions. I don't identify
> > >that strongly with John Clare.
> > >
> > >I don't agree either that an MFA purports to guarantee social cachet
> > >and a middle-class income: I've never heard that claim at least.
> > >
> > >And I wouldn't ask either Gertrude Stein or Andre Breton's opinion
> > >about cooking cabbage. And if anyone attempted to discuss such a
> > >subject with me at a social gathering I would walk away.
> > >
> > >Mairead
> > >
> > >On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:59:38 -0500, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > > I'm always hesitant to post to Britpo because I'm acutely aware that
> its
> > > > value, certainly for me, is that it's not dominated by USians. But I
> > > think I
> > > > can be helpful in this instance, as I've watched with increasing
> dismay the
> > > > results of the academicization of the arts in the US.
> > > >
> > > > The topic comes up from time to time on all poetry lists. Usually any
> > > > critique of the status quo is met by an extraordinary degree of
> evasiveness
> > > > or hostility, as a threat to the daily bread, or at least the sense of
> > > moral
> > > > rectitude, of many on the list.
> > > >
> > > > Here's a bit of what I posted last month to Poetryetc, minus the parts
> that
> > > > are too referential to the context of that discussion. I posted
> something
> > > > like the first paragraph to britpo earlier this week, but there's
> plenty of
> > > > fresh meat beyond.
> > > >
> > > > Several things here. First, in the mouths of poets of my kind and
> > >generation
> > > > "academic" has nothing to do with intellectual; it
> > >was, from the
> > >50s into
> > > > the 70s, a convenient name for the then mainstream, which
> > >became
> > >what
> > > > Silliman calls "the school of quietude," despite the fact
> > >that then as
> > >now
> > > > many non-quietudiness types, like Doug, held university positions.
> > >One
> > >could
> > > > even be an acadmic poet without ever passing through the gates
> > > > of
> > >a
> > >university.
> > >
> > >The larger issue is, I think, not how some poets make a
> > > > living and how
> > >much
> > >time it may take away from their writing, but the
> > > > process of
> > >professionalization and homogenization at work in MFA programs.
> > > > The
> > >result,
> > >across the entire spectrum, has been a patholgical degree
> > > > of
> > >predictability--MFA-trained Language poets write more like
> > > > Language
> > >poets
> > >than their langpo teachers, who managed to become poets
> > > > without the
> > >benefit of
> > >several years of workshops, for instance. And the
> > > > same is true for the
> > >endless string of suburban poets filling the designated
> > > > poetry spaces in
> > >the New Yorkeror Poetry.
> > >
> > >What gets attenuated is the
> > > > discovery of craft and its use as a tool for
> > >discovering the world, absent
> > > > any experience working in the world beyond
> > >the schools.
> > >
> > >There's of course
> > > > an enormous ambivalence built into this. I'm aware when
> > >I
> > >publish books that
> > > > if they don't sell well to university libraries and
> > >to
> > >MFAs they won't sell.
> > > > And I also think that it's great that you and
> > >others
> > >don't have to herd
> > > > goats. The problem is that with every graduating
> > >class
> > >there are more
> > > > half-baked late adolescents licensed to call themselves
> > >poets, nine tenths
> > > > of whom will never write anything even mildly useful,
> > >who expect to be able
> > > > to muzzle up to the trough and teach yet another
> > >class how to write
> > > > well-behaved poems of whatever kind, and mediocrity
> > >becomes progressively
> > > > the norm.
> > >
> > >Years ago, when I applied to the MacDowell Colony my friend
> > > > Richard
> > >Elman,
> > >who taught in the Columbia then-proto-MFA program, wrote
> > > > a
> > >recommendation
> > >for me, which he let me read. I was struck by the phrase
> > > > "though he
> > >is
> > >self-taught as a poet..." I told him that wasn't true--I knew
> > > > dozens
> > >of
> > >poets and learned from several, I'd run reading series', edited
> > > > a
> > >magazine,
> > >published my first book, read endlessly, etc. "Listen," he
> > >said,
> > > > "of course it's bullshit.
> > >But it will get you in." It did.
> > >
> > >
> > >OK, now back to
> > > > this list. To the extent that the world needs poets at all it doesn't
> need
> > > > them mass-produced, and we could certainly do without most of the
> > > blathering
> > > > of licensed 25 year olds, who now publish each other and promote each
> > > > other's work from the classroom or profit-making journals or
> publishing
> > > > houses for which the MFA is an entry requirement for employment. And
> > > what do
> > > > we do with all the tenured poets who would have stopped writing if
> they
> > > > hadn't found a sustainable career as poets because they wouldn't have
> been
> > > > sufficiently called to keep on? Someone recently commented something
> to the
> > > > effect (forgive me for garbling) that everyone's a poet at 20, at 40
> it's a
> > > > different matter. Yes, but the rewards of the current system means
> that
> > > > those who take the poetry career track at 20 are decreasingly tested
> as
> > > they
> > > > approach maturity, and many remain unaware that the making of poetry
> > > > requires constant internal testing and questioning. Within the
> universities
> > > > a poet at 20 is likely to be calling himself a poet at 40.
> > > > Since my return to New York from the wilds of San Diego I've found
> > > myself at
> > > > several gatherings of young MFAs. They compared career notes and
> nothing
> > > > else. When I was their age, after the requisite gossip and flirtation
> what
> > > > got talked about was poetry, and information about each of our latest
> > > > enthusiasms was passed about. Ties between older and younger poets
> were
> > > > forged that acted as a sort of apprenticeship.
> > > >
> > > > I'm aware that one of the arguments for the MFA is that it levels the
> > > > playing field--presumably even the occasional student too poor to
> > > afford the
> > > > monstrously high fees (in the tens of thousands of pounds a year)
> > > charged in
> > > > the US gets admitted on scholarship, and aspiring poets from
> > > > poetically-impoverished places are spared the expenditure of energy
> and
> > > risk
> > > > needed to make contact with other writers (in exchange for having
> their
> > > > focus sharply restricted), whether through epistolary brashness or
> actually
> > > > moving to say NY or San Francisco. But the reality on the ground, even
> more
> > > > in Britain than in the US, is that these days a John Clare without an
> MFA
> > > > would not be condemned to destitution--he'd live in council housing,
> be
> > > > treated by the national health service, and feed himself either from a
> > > > disability pension, or, in the case of those not so incapacitated as
> Clare,
> > > > earn a minor but sufficient living, under modern rules of employment,
> > > > complete with vacation time that in the US is for most people only a
> dream.
> > > >
> > > > What the MFA purports to guarantee (and there are far too many MFAs in
> the
> > > > US to make that claim more than a cruel joke) is social cachet and a
> middle
> > > > class income.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 08:18 AM 2/6/2005, cris cheek wrote:
> > > > Hi Tim,
> > > >
> > > > sorry. I didn't think it defensiveness on my part. More an offering of
> > > > a conundrum, which sought to muddy the waters so that actual work
> could
> > > > enter the frame of discussion by example. I did want to get to names
> to
> > > > try to understand who was actually being referred to. Although I'll
> > > > fully accept the charge of tired listing. I was, obviously wrongly,
> > > > wondering if a conflation of working in academia and teaching criteria
> > > > developed through personal practice might not be the point of
> > > > conflation. Clearly, as in my own example, the majority of those on
> > > > that list had lengthy histories of practice before teaching, although
> > > > many also studied as undergraduates when young. The lists were quite
> > > > deliberately intended to include some 'ringers' and deploy
> > > > inconsistencies in order to find out to whom the mesh between academic
> > > > verse and avant &c was referring. Also to include for example two
> > > > generations of those broadly considered lang-po in the US context and
> > > > whatever (linguistically innovative if that works) likewise in the
> > > > British ones.
> > > >
> > > > I do agree that the grounds from which many newer, younger (whatever)
> > > > poets are emerging are creative writing courses and their orbital
> > > > activities in further education. Many of the latter are now in
> > > > universities (on both sides of the pond) - and they are nothing if
> not
> > > > quick to spot financial opportunities (the universities i mean).
> > > > Creative Writing courses have become a cash cow and increased in
> number
> > > > over the past few years dramatically. I'm not saying this is a good
> > > > thing per se either, but it is undeniably so. Generally, which of
> > > > course i use advisedly, many of those who are graduating from these
> > > > courses are going on into MA and even PhD pursuits.
> > > >
> > > > It *does mean that poets have been acculturated to producing critical
> > > > materials and reflexive writing in close relation to or even as part
> of
> > > > their emergent writing practice. So critical tools, vocabularies,
> > > > perspectives, strategies (from philosophy, literature, cultural
> > > > studies, performance studies, media studies, bio-informatics . . .)
> are
> > > > becoming integral to a poet's experience of language. Reading and
> > > > Writing both are certainly changing and with the growing number going
> > > > on into further education the readership is changing also.
> > > >
> > > > One reason, perhaps, why taste tzars such as Don Patterson are getting
> > > > publicly jittery is that the texts available for further education are
> > > > becoming increasingly numerous from those kinds of poets whose
> > > > practices and critical perspectives are lang-po and ling-inno-po
> (among
> > > > the many variant po in evidence) grounded, partly since it is those
> > > > poetries whose poetics most form an energisiing mesh with other
> > > > critical discourses as listed in brackets above. You know, it's pretty
> > > > simple. To whom is one going to refer to and to differ from (classic
> > > > avant-garde strategies). That does accept the existence of quite
> > > > differing readerships, but that's surely nothing new. What might be
> > > > warranted is a kind of new punk poetry to counter too much of the
> > > > dominance from today's scriptoria.
> > > >
> > > > Being on such courses do allow for reading of poetries that offer more
> > > > resistance and are less easily absorbed (PERHAPS, perhaps). Many
> > > > readers, not allowed such luxury of shared interpretations (outside of
> > > > the experience of belonging to a book group) cannot give over their
> > > > waking hours to such sustained mulling (perhaps, perhaps).
> > > >
> > > > The flavor of a particular program is strongly inflected by its key
> > > > poet(s). It'll be interesting, to take one obvious example, to see how
> > > > writing emerging from Buffalo change over to the coming years, between
> > > > Charles Bernsein's and Steve McCaffery's authored climates of research
> > > > and umbrellas of enthusiasm. Another example is the shift from Burt
> > > > Kimmelman and Sylvester Pollet to Ben Friedlander and Steve Evans at
> > > > Orono (even though Burt and Sylvester remain, Ben and Steve are
> > > > bringing other energies and enthusiasms into play). It isn't exactly
> > > > big thinking to point this out I realise that. One might take the
> > > > current clutch of young poets active around Birkbeck as another
> example
> > > > over here or the past decade of fierce enquiry at Dartington. I do
> > > > think this is going on in the UK as much as in the US now. The scale
> > > > and intensity differ for sure but with Dartington, Exeter, Edge Hill,
> > > > Warwick, Bangor, Southampton, Roehampton, Royal Holloway, UEA,
> > > > Manchester Metropolitan, Salford . . . and many others the burgeoning
> > > > US model of the Writer's House is likely to follow on.
> > > >
> > > > Staying in education, living off small research studentships and so on
> > > > has (perhaps perhaps) supplanted the dole as one way to develop a
> > > > writing practice in the largely commercially non-viable worlds of
> > > > contemporary poetry (given rare exceptions). There are real problems
> > > > too. One is that writing can become too pedagogically inclined,
> writing
> > > > what students might usefully study as example. Another is that of
> > > > getting sucked into teaching without ever having much experience of
> > > > outside, in other words skipping that vital phase of resistance and
> > > > struggle, developing a practice outside the institutions. I've
> > > > certainly witnessed examples like that in the US in recent months and
> > > > maybe that produces the efficient and yet smug poetry that you might
> be
> > > > trying to get at?
> > > >
> > > > love and love
> > > > cris
> >
> >
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