Hi all
I would tend to agree with Malcolm on this one but add that any refuge area
will always be inadequate and should only be regarded as a temporary staging
point to enable the management procedures in evacuating everyone from the
building to enact all those procedures they had planned in advance. In the
case of some people with impairments that could be assisted escape.
Regards
Marcus
-----Original Message-----
From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Malcolm Crate
Sent: 20 October 2005 11:12
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] building approvals
Hi All
I wonder if too much emphasis is being placed on creating a refuge with a
specific size within escape stair enclosures. Would it not be better to
approach the design by compartmenting the building which would allow larger
numbers of people of all abilities to move from the compartment in which a
fire has started into an adjacent compartment. The fire resistance of the
compartments would be the same as for an escape stair enclosure but because
it is a compartment there would be more flexibility in terms of its layout
and obviously much larger than a landing on a stair. I'm not sure but is
this not the way that multi storey hospitals are designed to allow staged
evacuation? Best wishes Malcolm Crate
-----Original Message-----
From: helen taylor [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 20 October 2005 10:44
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] building approvals
Can I just say in defence of designers that we are usually working to a
brief given to us by a client! the best buildings result from a close
working relationship between the designer and the end user and this is not
always possible or allowed.
In relation to the museum- it is rarely possible to afford or have space for
single storey buildings so this is a problem with the majority of the
building stock in the country. Was it reasonable for the designer or the
client in this case to assume that there would be a significant number of
people requiring assisted access or escape upstairs at any one time? Any
suggestions as to how this management difficulty could have been avoided in
the design?
With best wishes
Helen Taylor
architectureplb
On 19/10/05 9:29 am, "Flick Harris" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> Sounds like a great example to include in the consultation response!
>
> Re. how was it ever passed - sounds like the planning and building
> control sections need urgent training and maybe the development of
> some departmental policies with the local authority.
>
> We have just started some joint work with the Greater Manchester
> Police to develop joint guidance on security and access issues and
> have found that we share many of the same concerns. We hope that this
> can be replicated with the Fire Services and that any guidance we
> produce can be used, eventually, across Greater Manchester.
>
> We all agreed that the designers and others tend not to understand how
> space will be used, they usually ignore the inevitable management
> issues that result from their designs, and that usually developers go
> for the cheap option!
>
> Best wishes
>
> Flick
>
>
> At 09:34 18/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>> Hi All
>> to develop on John and Terry's comments re Ambulance & Part M
>>
>> Yesterday I attended the opening of a new 2 story museum.
>>
>> there were
>>
>> 22 wheelchair riders (assorted chair types)
>> 7 scooters riders
>> 5 pushchair passengers
>> I'd guess another 10 to 20 people who could not walk down stairs
unaided
>> plus three people with low vision who needed help on stairs
>>
>>
>> the museum has refuge space for about 6 wheelchairs at the top of
>> outdoor, open plan, polished steel, stepped evacuation stairs which
>> do not have nosing contrast, and have nice stainless steel handrails
>>
>> can anybody explain
>> 1. what would be the likely survival rate?
>> 2. how this building was ever passed through planning and building
>> regs, licensing and fire inspection?
>>
>> the museum had organised plenty of staff and made plans for this
>> occasion, but what if this number of people attended another function
>> on a normal working day with standard staffing levels. ?
>>
>> The new guidance for Part B 2005 only allows for one refuge on a
>> floor (all be it larger than the 900 x 1500 of the old ADB 2000/EuAm
>> 01) and does not address the problem the above number of people
>> needing assistance would generate for people with disabilities which
>> make use of stairs difficult/impossible. I have tried writing to the
>> ODPM's office about this problem but have received no answer.
>>
>> Anybody found similar problems? or
>> have suggestions in how this type of problem can be addressed.?
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Dave Croft
>> PS any comments Cass
>>
>>>
>>
>> ----------End of Message----------
>>
>> Run by SURFACE for more information on research, consultancy and the
>> distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and Inclusive Design programme
>> visit:
>>
>> http://www.inclusive-design.it
>>
>> Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
>>
>
> Chair, MDPAG (Manchester Disabled People's Access Group)
> Office: [log in to unmask]
> Tel: 0161 273 5033
> Fax: 0161 273 2637
> Website: http://www.mdpag.org.uk
> Personal: [log in to unmask]
>
> ----------End of Message----------
>
> Run by SURFACE for more information on research, consultancy and the
> distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and Inclusive Design programme
> visit:
>
> http://www.inclusive-design.it
>
> Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
>
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