I suppose the leap to "democratic" poetasting came with universal
education, before that not everyone could become a poet. Of course,
once that happened most people could write and yes, they could call
themselves poets. A parallel can be found in trial by jury: once the
common herd received the right of trial by jury, politicians started
trying to limit it.
I'm currently taking life-drawing classes. It's very technical,
practice is encouraged, a sense of history etc. This is as far from
Tracey Emin's unmade bed as you can get and I'm along for the ride.
I've seen several men on TV - and they're usually men - try and
critique her stuff because of it's lack of so-called technical ability
and they sound unconvincing.
So yes, the question is: who's the "we"?
Roger
On 11/14/05, Knut Mork Skagen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > But with poetry? - ah well, we don't take it seriously do we? it
> > doesn'tmatter, does it?
>
> I'm curious about who you're aiming this at, David. Who is the "we" in this question?
>
> What you bring up here doesn't just apply to poetry, but to all the (creative -- not performing) arts. How many amateur painters aren't there hocking their wares to countryside tourists? How many rotten songwriters strumming away at their guitars? And this is understandable. If you make bad shoes, peoples' feet hurt; if you drive a train badly, they die. Make bad art, and nothing bad happens. (Except some cringing here and there).
>
> It is also one of the deeply beautiful aspects of the arts, the democracy that you touch on. The arts can be a spectator sport, but they also open up the possibility of ordinary people creating beauty in their own lives. In Norway people write songs and poems for major occasions -- weddings, christenings, confirmations. The stuff they come up with is horrible, but when my own wedding came along I finally understood the point.
>
> This isn't really problem until someone in a position of authority -- editors, instructors, curators
> -- starts legitimizing sloppy, unprofessional work and trying to pass it off as good and professional. The amateurs aren't really to blame. Everyone loves to try their hand at a thing, and poetry (or watercolors) happens to be a safer thing to try your hand at than, say, amateur welding.
>
> So this goes back to my first question. I'm not disagreeing with your points, I'm just curious. Who's the "we"?
>
> --Knut
>
> > The only major occupation I know of where no prior skill, talent or
> > application is required, only the fact of becoming noticed, is:
> >
> > politics.
> >
> > And look what happens there!
> >
> > (I'm using Maz's message as a tag to generally respond to the various
> > messages, thanks to all, especially jon, Martin, Roger, Joanna,
> > Joanna, if I
> > tried to answer each point by point I'd be at the PC all day!)
> >
> > All the Best
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "grasshopper" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 1:42 AM
> > Subject: Re: Blah
> >
> >
> > > David,
> > > What you've discovered is the new truth about democratic poetry
> > today.What
> > > is important is the attitude. All people need in order to dignify
> > themselves
> > > with the title poet (or Poet) is the feeling that they are much
> > sensitive> than the common run of people, and therefore obviously
> > have Something to
> > > Say. They don't need to learn or practise any craft--they just
> > have to
> > feel
> > > a need to express themselves. And once they are Poets, expressing
> > > themselves, anything they write with linebreaks is Poetry, and
> > it's the
> > duty
> > > of readers to read it and marvel.
> > > In other words, it's the triumph of attitude over application.
> > >
> > > Regards, Maz
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David Bircumshaw" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:57 AM
> > > Subject: Blah
> > >
> > >
> > > > I've become interested lately, as apart from being
> > excruciatingly aware,
> > > of
> > > > the laziness of poetry. Poetry, as an art, along with elements
> > of visual
> > > > arts, has become a last refuge of the bone-idle, at least, if
> > you write
> > a
> > > > novel, or a play, you have to put your back into it, it takes
> > work,> poetry,
> > > > although, because of its extremely primitive basics, can be
> > like a
> > > > five-minute-fix. This is not to say the withering and murderous
> > demands> that
> > > > poetry as an art does exact, but there's kind of fuzzy notion
> > arounmdthat
> > > > anyone can write poetry. No they can't, and what's more most
> > poets most
> > > > can't write it either (to order), or to acceptance. It comes
> > when the
> > gods
> > > > say, and with an awful lot in the background support. This may
> > sound> rather
> > > > elitist, it is, it also is very democratic: anyone can do, but
> > mostcan't.
> > > >
> > > > The worst thing of all is the proliferation of banality posing as
> > poetry,
> > > it
> > > > killls the art.
> > > >
> > > > i get so tired of hearing people who are totally ignorant of
> > the least
> > bit
> > > > of metrics (you have to know the rules in order to break them -
> > that's> what
> > > > I do) or the provenance of words droning on in my ear. a friend
> > of mine
> > > who
> > > > is keen amateur singer, this just as a chorister in a
> > provincial city's
> > > > classical choir, has to do one full and one semi-rhearsal twice
> > a week,
> > > plus
> > > > other bits of practice, twice a week plus, just to be in the
> > background> in
> > > > a performance. Most people I know who think they're poets look
> > at you as
> > > if
> > > > the boat's gone out if you say 'catalexis' or 'caesura' or even
> > > > 'enjambement' to them. Not to mention 'tonic' and sub-tonic'
> > stress or ,
> > > God
> > > > help us, 'anacrusis'.
> > > >
> > > > One guy I know, who thinks he's a poet, told me recently he
> > went on a
> > > course
> > > > where he learnt about technique - it was called 'iambic
> > pentameter'.> >
> > > > Lord have mercy.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> >
>
--
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
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