I'm trumped! What did he say abiut Shakespeare?
Mark
At 09:53 AM 4/16/2005, you wrote:
>I got it the first time, Mark - I read Alison's mail in the morning
>(Romance Time) & answered before noticing & clicking on yours, which of
>course made the point more learnedly. I was too keen on showing off my
>knowledge of Olson! - But perhaps you can tell us whether Creeley ever
>changed his feeling about Shakespeare?
>mj
>
>Mark Weiss wrote:
>
>>For reasons that escape me, fairly often messages I send to poetryetc
>>make it into the archive but not into other listmembers' computers. Makes
>>one feel occasionally marginalized in discussion. Case in point, a
>>message sent last night: "Ron's there with the obvious , for a change.
>>Olson's master's thesis Lear and Moby Dick (published in two parts in the
>>first two issues of the magazine Twice a Year in 1938)
>>became his first book, Call Me Ishmael (City Lights, 1947, and several
>>reprints, and Johns Hopkins, 1997). He also wrote about Shakespeare's
>>late verse, not surprisingly finding it a lot like his own. Someone will
>>have to help me with the name of the essay, all of my things being
>>entombed in storage.
>>
>>No reason you should know this, Alison, but Ron certainly does. Would
>>have been nice if he'd mentioned his sources."
>>
>>Since then I came up with the name of the essay (also sent this to the
>>list): "Quantity in Verse, and Shakespeare's Late Plays."
>>
>>Someone let me know if this comes through.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>At 05:51 AM 4/16/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>>Well, Olson goes on about Shakespeare quite a bit in *Call Me Ishmael*.
>>>I hadn't thought of looking at his poetry in that light, though. (I
>>>haven't looked at Silliman yet.) As far as Shakespeare books are
>>>concerned, the one that I've read in recent years that really got me
>>>humming was Michael D. Bristol's *Big-time Shakespeare*, covering an
>>>awful lot of topics, from The Stationers Company to *The Sandman*,
>>>Bakhtin to Branagh, early modern Christmas to *Calvin & Hobbes*.
>>>What version of Shakes is this NEA going to disseminate? Mrs Grundy's? I
>>>only ask because one's heard a lot about school board censorship etc in
>>>the States. I'm a little sceptical about Shakes "generating" anything -
>>>can't see much evidence of that in contemporary Britain, perhaps I'm
>>>missing something. I dare say a few fundamentalist freaks have read
>>>Shakespeare - *their* way. - Interesting that Creeley, at least during
>>>his youth, couldn't get started (I'm broken-hearted) with Shakes at all,
>>>at least according to his early correspondence with Olson. - Shakespeare
>>>a Lutheran? I thought Purgatory was a no-no under the protestant
>>>dispensation, and everyone is always going on about the Shakespeares'
>>>Catholic connections.
>>>Robin, no doubt, will clear this up.
>>>mj
>>>
>>>Alison Croggon wrote:
>>>
>>>>Ron Silliman (http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/) has a most interesting
>>>>meditation on the NEA program to bring Shakespeare to the American masses
>>>>and its possibly unpredictable effects, given that two American writers
>>>>deeply influenced by WS are Melville and Olson. Dang it, he's right...
>>>>Though I hadn't made the Olson connection - Silliman's idea of soliloquy
>>>>rather than "dramatic monologue" in Olson (maybe in a lot of modern poetry)
>>>>seems particularly apt.
>>>>
>>>>"So much of Olson reads as tho it were written to be shouted out over a
>>>>heath, or else to be whispered to an audience, a stage whisper capable of
>>>>reaching hundreds of ears at once. It is not so much dramatic monolog tho
>>>>Maximus is a persona as it is soliloquy. Olsonšs sense of how a sentence
>>>>interacts with the line something I suspect an entire generation or two
>>>>has internalized so deeply we donšt even recognize it has always
>>>>struck me
>>>>as coming right out of Shakespeare, far more than from Melville or Pound.
>>>>This feel for the materiality of the relationship between the two is
>>>>apparent, right there on the surface, in Olson, & through his influence it
>>>>radiates outward. I can hear echoes in Creeley, in Duncan or Levertov, in
>>>>OšHara & Whalen & even in Ginsberg. And it ripples again, just a little
>>>>more
>>>>faintly, through every one of us influenced by any of them.
>>>>
>>>>"So the idea of all these people reading, seeing, hearing Shakespeare is, I
>>>>suspect, much more of a wild card than the NEAšs leaders may comprehend.
>>>>Because where it wonšt lead is back to is either the homogenous
>>>>retro-utopia
>>>>of so many a Congressmanšs dream nor to the same ol š stuff the School of
>>>>Quietude has been shoveling. Inseminating Shakespeare into the American
>>>>literary landscape is far more apt to generate a bunch of wild men & wyrd
>>>>sisters instead. As Olson himself most certainly was."
>>>>
>>>>I've been seeing a fair bit of WS lately (not only the stuff on my theatre
>>>>blog, though I won't forget that Hamlet in the shop front, which was just
>>>>wonderful...) Whenever I watch a good production - bad productions don't
>>>>count - I come out so vitalised and stimulated. Oddly, only last week I
>>>>watched the dvd of the RSC Macbeth Ron mentions, with Judi Dench and Ian
>>>>McKellan. It also features one of my favourite actors, Bob Peck as
>>>>Macduff.
>>>>One of the darkest slants on Macbeth that you can imagine - Macduff comes
>>>>out at the end having killed Macbeth, holding the daggers in the same way
>>>>that Macbeth did from killing Duncan - and you realise that he's as
>>>>crazy as
>>>>Macbeth was. Now that's bleak; the world may seem to be righted, but you
>>>>realise it isn't at all.
>>>>
>>>>Harold Bloom is erudite, of course, but I find him a bore on Shakespeare;
>>>>well, I try to read him, but my attention peters out. Maybe it's too
>>>>narrow
>>>>a stream of water in all that rich delta of words. I like Kermode better;
>>>>and Jan Kott is wonderful on WS in the mid-20C, and particularly its
>>>>radical
>>>>applications as a critique of power which was I think a big influence
>>>>on the
>>>>RSC. But now I'm really blithering.
>>>>
>>>>Interesting blog comments too - someone claims Shakespeare was a Lutheran,
>>>>especially in Hamlet. Hmm. (Reminds me of the joke in Long Day's Journey
>>>>into Night that Shakespeare was an Irish Catholic). Considering how Hamlet
>>>>turns out, I wouldn't want WS as an advocate.
>>>>
>>>>Best
>>>>
>>>>A
>>>>
>>>>Alison Croggon
>>>>
>>>>Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
>>>>Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au
>>>>Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com
>>>>
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