It's a perfectly well-reasoned argument, surely.

However, it does demand that one pays attention to the grammar and syntax.

As for Edward Herbert, one can't get out what hasn't been put in. Do you
mean 'limpid' or 'limp', Robin?

best joanna

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 1:53 AM
Subject: Donne rivals Herbert for obscurity -- the Prince Henry Elegy


> K, I know this is boring but you wouldn't *believe* the trouble it took to
> get this text off the Web.
>
> :-(
>
> (I'm not sure whether to bless or curse the good people working on the
> Variorum Donne.)
>
> http://donnevariorum.com/trs/trs.htm
>
> For what it's worth, here it is.
>
> Robin
>
> (I mean, you have to admit, it makes Edward Herbert look like a model of
> limpid lucidity.)
>
>
>
> Look to Me, Faith; and look to my Faith, GOD:
>
> For, both my Centres feel This Period.
>
> Of Waight, one Centre; one, of Greatness is:
>
> And REASON is That Centre; FAITH is This.
>
> For, into our Reason flowe, and there doe end,
>
> All that this naturall World doth comprehend;
>
> Quotidian things, and Equi-distant hence,
>
> Shut-in for Men in one Circumference:
>
> But, for th'enormous Greatnesses, which are
>
> So disproportion'd and so angulare,
>
> As is GOD'S Essence, Place, and Prouidence,
>
> Where, How, When, What, Soules do departed hence:
>
> These Things (Eccentrique else) on Faith do strike;
>
> Yet neither All, nor vpon all alike:
>
> For, Reason, put t'her best Extension,
>
> Almost meetes Faith, and makes both Centres one:
>
> And nothing euer came so neer to This,
>
> As Contemplation of the PRINCE wee misse.
>
> For, All that Faith could credit Mankinde could,
>
> Reason still seconded that This PRINCE would.
>
> If then, least Mouings of the Centre make
>
> (More then if whole Hell belcht) the World to shake,
>
> What must This doo; Centres distracted so,
>
> That Wee see not what to beleeue or knowe?
>
> Was it not well believ'd, till now; that Hee,
>
> Whose Reputation was an Extasie
>
> On Neighbour States; which knew not Why to wake
>
> Till Hee discouerd what wayes Hee would take:
>
> For Whom what Princes angled (when they tryed)
>
> Mett a Torpedo, and were stupefied:
>
> And Others studies, how Hee would be bent,
>
> Was His great Father's greatest Instrument,
>
> And activ'st spirit to conuey and tye
>
> This soule of Peace through CHRISTIANITIE?
>
> Was it not well believ'd, that Hee would make
>
> This general Peace th'eternall ouertake?
>
> And that His Times might haue stretcht out so far
>
> As to touch Those of which they Emblems are?
>
> For, to confirm this iust Belief, that Now
>
> The last Dayes came; wee saw Heauen did allow
>
> That but from His aspect and Exercise,
>
> In Peace-full times, Rumors of Warrs should rise.
>
> But now This Faith is Heresie: wee must
>
> Still stay, and vexe our Great-Grand-Mother, DVST.
>
> Oh! Is GOD prodigall? Hath He spent his store
>
> Of Plagues on vs? and only now, when more
>
> Would ease vs much, doth he grudge Miserie,
>
> And will not lett's enioy our Curse, to Dye?
>
> As, for the Earth throw'n lowest downe of all,
>
> 'Twere an Ambition to desire to fall:
>
> So God, in our desire to dye, dooth know
>
> Our Plot for Ease, in beeing Wretched so.
>
> Therfore Wee liue: though such a Life wee haue
>
> As but so manie Mandrakes on his Grave.
>
> What had His growth and generation donne?
>
> When what wee are, his putrefaction
>
> Sustains in vs, Earth; which Griefs animate:
>
> Nor hath our World now other soule then That.
>
> And could Grief gett so high as Heav'n, that Quire
>
> Forgetting This, their new Ioy would desire
>
> (VVith grief to see him) Hee had staid belowe,
>
> To rectifie Our Errors They foreknowe.
>
> Is th'other Centre, REASON, faster, then?
>
> VVhere should wee look for That, now w'are not Men?
>
> For, if our Reason be our Connexion
>
> VVith Causes, now to vs there can be none.
>
> For, as, if all the Substances were spent,
>
> 'Twere Madnes to enquire of Accident:
>
> So is't to looke for Reason, HEE being gone,
>
> The only Subiect REASON wrought vpon.
>
> If Faith haue such a chaine, whose divers Links
>
> Industrious Man discerneth, as he thinks,
>
> VVhen Miracle dooth ioine; and to steal-in
>
> A new link Man knowes not where to begin:
>
> At a much deader Fault must Reason bee,
>
> Death hauing broke-off such a Link as Hee.
>
> But, now, for vs with busie Proofs to come
>
> That w'haue no Reason, would proue we had some:
>
> So would iust Lamentations: Therfore Wee
>
> May safelier say, that VVee are dead, then Hee.
>
> So, if our Griefs wee doo not well declare,
>
> VV'haue double Excuse; Hee is not dead, VVee are.
>
> Yet would not I dye yet; for though I bee
>
> Too-narrow, to think HIM, as Hee is HEE
>
> (Our Soule's best Bayting and Mid-period
>
> In her long Iourney of Considering GOD)
>
> Yet (no Dishonor) I can reach Him thus;
>
> As Hee embrac't the Fires of Loue with vs.
>
> Oh! May I (since I liue) but see or hear
>
> That Shee-Intelligence which mov'd This Sphear,
>
> I pardon Fate my Life. Who-e'r thou bee
>
> Which hast the noble Conscience, Thou art Shee.
>
> I coniure Thee by all the Charmes Hee spoke,
>
> By th'Oathes which only you Two neuer broke,
>
> By all the Soules you sigh't; that if you see
>
> These Lines, you wish I knew Your Historie:
>
> So, much as You Two mutual Heauens were here,
>
> I were an Angel singing what You were.