Thanks Mark.

Before I left Ireland in 1994 I went in to see Gerald Dawe in Trinity
College, the only editor who had ever published my poetry in Ireland
(and that record held, with one exception, until Randolph Healy
published my poem The Pillar in 2000), and asked him if Trinity, or
any other college to his knowledge (nice rhyme Mairead) would be
instituting a creative writing graduate program anytime soon.  He said
not a chance.  (A few years later, as it happens, Trinity inaugurated
its Masters program).  At that time, 10 years ago, the only Masters
program on the island of Ireland was that connected to James Simmons'
and Janice Fitzpatrick's very small school then in Antrim, now in
Donegal (granted by the University of Durham, I think).  I won't
bother to tell you my perception of how that venture was viewed by
some poets in Ireland.  Jimmy and Janice gave me a scholarship once
and I spent 3 weeks in Portmuc, at that time the Masters students were
(one each) American and Canadian.  The reason I think it's worth
taking up the bandwidth, as you say, on the subject here is that I think the
situation has changed a lot since then -- I'm not beyond wondering if
the time will come when I myself will be teaching creative writing in
Ireland!!!!!  I know universities in Ireland are borrowing
semesterization and other factors of American education; I'm sure
creative writing programs will increase and will most likely be on the
American model.  I have mixed feelings about all that.

The first workshop I ever took was with Alan Dugan in Truro, Cape Cod.
It was held outside.  I don't think he ever taught in a college in
his life, or any school.  It was wonderful.  I later took a workshop
with John McGahern, and one with Eavan Boland: both like water to a
very thirsty person.

I hear what you say about Plath.  One of the great things about
teaching creative writing is that generally you can teach the material
that you consider really significant: for you, or historically.  I
like that.  Also, as you say: with luck or generally students have
access to a range of teachers, and are not exposed to only one set of
taste (sounds weird, like salt and pepper shakers).

As far as the generational thing goes, I'm probably closer to yours
than otherwise.  I don't have an MFA and my PhD is in Theory &
Cultural Studies; my dissertation was on contemporary theories and
applications of metaphor.  My masters was 50/50 English literature /
Poetry {writing, poetics, literature).  But what you say about
graduates of MFA programs being more benign about teaching in MFA
programs probably historically makes sense.

Mairead



On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:52:20 -0500, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> At 11:34 AM 2/20/2005, Mark Weiss wrote:
> >At 10:11 AM 2/20/2005, mairead byrne wrote:
> >>Dear Mark,
> >>
> >>I hope you count me as a friend among your friends who, probably not
> >>uniquely, likes teaching poetry.
>
> I do.
>
> >>  I know you would not intend to be
> >>disrespectful and don't find your message at all so.  I hope, in
> >>presenting my different point of view, I am not disrespectful to you.
> >>
> >>I didn't say anything about a Renaissance in poetry in America, just
> >>that I consider it a much richer poetry environment for me than
> >>Ireland.  I also consider creative writing programs to be a more
> >>functional context for poetry writing than pubs, especially for women.
> >>
> >>Next week I am starting teaching again.  In one class I will
> >>presenting an introduction to the history, conventions, and major
> >>practitioners in the Western tradition of pattern poetry; my teaching
> >>partner will do the same for Eastern traditions.  In my other class, a
> >>Beginning Poetry Workshop, we will be reading and writing, working
> >>with one book a week, starting with Arthur Waley's Chinese poems, then
> >>Bradstreet, Whitman, Hopkins, Stein, Langston Hughes, Frank O'Hara,
> >>Sylvia Plath, Joe Brainard, Russell Edson and Harryette Mullen, eleven
> >>books in all.  Yes I find it exciting to be introducing students to
> >>all this, and to be engaging with it myself.  You may not.  I remember
> >>you wrote on a listserv that you would not teach Plath because that
> >>would mean you would have to read her work.
>
> No, what I wrote is that I wouldn't teach Plath or any other poet whose
> work I truly don't like (I'm talking natch about creative writing as
> opposed to scholarly courses) because what I would inevitably impart is my
> dislike of her/their work. Students interested in poetry will have more
> than enough exposure to teachers with tastes different from mine.
>
>
> >>I guess that, like many things, teaching poetry is a continuum, with
> >>some feeling about it as I do, some feeling as you do, and many points
> >>in between.  What I'm interested in, given your wide teaching
> >>experience and unique negative attitude to teaching creative writing,
> >>is in the factors which have constructed that view.  What is
> >>distinctly objectionable about teaching creative writing in your
> >>experience?  It seems something that you are well-fitted to do, so
> >>there seems to be a paradox.
>
> Yup, I'm good at it. I prefer teaching lit, though, and my creative writing
> classes have always been half lit, half workshop, as apparently are yours.
>
> My objection isn't to the teaching of creative writing but to the
> institutionalization of majors, MFAs and doctorates in creative writing and
> the impact that that has had on American poetry.
>
> This is a British poets list, and what some of us see as that impact is
> only useful here as a curiosity and a warning. No need to take up more
> bandwidth reiterating it.
>
> Myn opinion is hardly unique. I can't reveal what's been said to me in
> private conversations, but trust me, among teachers of creative writing who
> predate the prevalence of MFA and BFA programs the same objections are
> widespread. It's only among the generation of teachers most of whom are
> products of creative writing programs that one doesn't hear these
> objections as often.
>
>
> Mark
>
>