medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Marjorie Greene <[log in to unmask]>
> Yeah, well my "water at Moissac" seems to have begun another food fight. And
I'm soooo glad to find cc serving himself up some crow. I was wondering when
he'd figure out he'd poo-pooed the "glassy sea" interpretation and 'fess up.
i have no memory nor aftertaste of any crow feasting, much less any trace of
the Lower Tract Distress which such an event would surely have caused.
i objected to the "Glassy Sea" interpretation of the Moissac "clouds" on April
Fool's Day 2003, and i still object to it, on the same grounds, viz., The
Obvious.
>Am I a resource or what?!
remains to be seen.
jury's still out on that one.
get back to me later.
From: Marjorie Greene <[log in to unmask]>
> The sky is usually above and the waters, below. Context is everything
sometimes.
i agree entirely, with the Operative Word being "sometimes".
i think that there is no dispute about the Johannean Vision in Rev. 4 being
the (or the main) source of the Vision depicted in the Moissac tympanum.
this text does, indeed, call for "sea of glass like to
crystal".
if "Context" were "everything" there would be no question about what the wavy
forms **distributed throughout the tympanum** represented --something aquatic,
if not quite Seaish.
the thing about discussing *art* is, you need to actually look at the stuff
from time to time when forming an opinion about what it is that you are
seeing:
http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/France/Moissac/abbey/porch/Tympanum/
http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/France/Moissac/abbey/porch/Tympanum/Moissac-Portal-tymp-001-s.jpg
http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/France/Moissac/abbey/porch/Tympanum/Moissac-Portal-tymp-004-s.jpg
however, for whatever reason (most likely the evident difficulty of depicting
an Oxymoronic "sea of glass like to **crystal** ") the Visionary sculptor of
Moissac chose to revert to the normally accepted convention of depicting a
heavenly scene.
the wavy, cloudlike forms we see **distributed throughout the tympanum** at
Moissac are simply *indistinguishable* from the wavy, cloudlike forms we see
in **countless** depictions of "heavenly" scenes in all media from this period
(give or take several centuries). (viday infra)
i therefore take the simple position that those wavy, cloudlike forms,
**distributed throughout the tympanum** are wavy, *cloudlike* forms, not an
attempt to depict the Oxymoronic "sea of glass like to crystal" --even though,
strictly speaking, the context of the source text does, indeed, call for the
latter.
the only thing which *might* be dispositive to the resolution of the question,
in addition to the Obvious nature of the artefact which we presently have
before us, would be a restoration of the polychromy which, almost surely, once
covered the whole portal (trust me on this: *all* "romanesque" portals were
originally painted).
i suspect that, among other details, the "eyes" on the four beasts which the
text calls for
"the four living creatures had each of them six wings; and round
about and within they are full of eyes" (Rev. 4:8)
but which we see no trace of on any of them
http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/France/Moissac/abbey/porch/Tympanum/Moissac-Portal-tymp-002-s.jpg
http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/France/Moissac/abbey/porch/Tympanum/Moissac-Portal-tymp-007-s.jpg
http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/France/Moissac/abbey/porch/Tympanum/Moissac-Portal-tymp-006-s.jpg
were, originally, supplied via a polychromatic, rather than a sculptural,
medium.
or, maybe not.
maybe the sculptor decided that his already overly-complex image didn't really
need to be larded down with yet another detail, **Even though his source text
clearly called for that particular detail**.
this same latter argument could be made to explain the *fact* that none of the
four beasts has more than two wings, **Even though his source text clearly
called for that particular detail**.
this is sometimes called "artistic license".
[btw, of the *many* depictions of the four beasts/evangelist symbols to be
found in 12th c. sculpture, i can think of none, offhand, which have them with
their requisite six wings.]
From: richard landes <[log in to unmask]>
> thanks for the tour. interesting.
> > "sometimes, a Cloud is just a Cloud, folks." --C.J. Jung
> but these examples of clouds suggest that the moissac tympanum depicts
not clouds but water.
?
please inform me which one of these images suggests that :
http://www.mcah.columbia.edu/gothicsculpt/PAGES/700imagepages/700im051.html
--Chartres, West, Left portal.
the exact iconography of the tympanum is somewhat questionable (almost surely
not *water*, even though it might appear to be), but it needn't concern us
here: just note the *cloudlike* forms below the angels of the upper lintel.
http://www.art-roman.net/vezelay/vezelay13x.jpg --expand to full size.
Vezelay tympanum. *Not* based on a BoR text. Note the two different and
distinct types of "cloudlike" forms on either side of the Christ, the one on
the left being virtually indistinguishable from the forms we see at Moissac.
http://www.art-roman.net/vezelay/vezelay52.jpg --Vezelay lentel. Ditto.
http://www.art-roman.net/vezelay/vezelay79.jpg --Vezelay capital. A quite
typical "hand of God" emerging from the *clouds*.
http://www.art-roman.net/ilebouchard/ilebouchard17.jpg --L'Ile-Bouchard,
capital. Angels emerging from the *clouds*.
http://www.art-roman.net/lemanscath/lemanscath35.jpg --LeMans, glass. "Hand
of God" again.
http://www.art-roman.net/lemanscath/lemanscath36x.jpg --Ditto.
http://www.art-roman.net/lemanscath/lemanscath38.jpg --Ditto.
http://www.art-roman.net/lemanscath/lemanscath39.jpg --Ditto.
http://www.art-roman.net/lemanscath/lemanscath40.jpg --Guess.
etc.
their number am *Legion*.
"sometimes, a Cloud is just a Cloud, folks." --C.J. Jung
so, there's authority for you.
enfin, just to muddy the Waters (or Clouds) a bit, here's a post from the
original Food Fight on MedArt-L, last year, from a little lady who wrote her
Cornell dissertation on the Moissac portal a few years ago (forwarded to this
list with her permission) :
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 16:34:19 -0500
From: "Susan R. Dixon" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: water at Moissac
Speaking as one who, very long ago, did a lot of work on the tympanum
of Moissac, I would like to warn against a too-literal interpretation
of any element of that work. Although the tympanum does, indeed,
contain many allusions to passages in Revelation, it differs from any
particular one in such significant ways that it is not at all clear
the sculptor intended the work to represent any passage literally.
Even if we could determine whether the text (in English) means a sea
made of glass or a sea made of water but like glass, neither would
likely be represented literally with such billowing lines. So what
are they?
Perhaps the fact that we can't decide what these wavy lines "mean" is
intentional. For those viewers familiar with the passage, they can
mean the sea of glass. Or they can be clouds, suggesting "high and
lifted up." (By supporting the "clouds" interpretation Christopher
is, in my view, rightly warning against literalism.) Or - but this is
part of a much longer argument I made one hundred years ago - they
support a formal function among many elements in the tympanum that
confuses the eye and creates an overall effect of movement "round
about the throne of God."
Susan Dixon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
best to most,
c
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