The Disability-Research Discussion List

Managed by the Centre for Disability Studies at the University of Leeds

Help for DISABILITY-RESEARCH Archives


DISABILITY-RESEARCH Archives

DISABILITY-RESEARCH Archives


DISABILITY-RESEARCH@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

DISABILITY-RESEARCH Home

DISABILITY-RESEARCH Home

DISABILITY-RESEARCH  November 2004

DISABILITY-RESEARCH November 2004

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy

From:

Jorge Bolaños <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Jorge Bolaños <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:00:09 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (442 lines)

>From: Jorge Bolaños <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Jorge Bolaños <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 09:54:13 +0000
>
>>From: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]>
>>Reply-To: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>>Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:43:04 -0500
>>
>>   Dear Jorge,
>>
>>     do enlighten me, "scientifically and practically",
>>  how my arguments are "anti americanism"?
>>
>>   I'm all ears.
>>
>>
>>David
>>
>>
>>From:                   Jorge Bolaños <[log in to unmask]>
>>To:                     [log in to unmask]
>>BCC to:                 Subject:                Re: The Shakespeare 
>>Tragedy
>>Date sent:              Sat, 06 Nov 2004 11:58:09 +0000
>>
>> > That stupid antiamericanism is the last shelter for the far left, once 
>>all
>> > your arguments have been refuted scientifically and practically. But 
>>you
>> > should keep and take care of your old ideological phantoms, winter is 
>>coming
>> > and they can cold could bring fatal consequences for them.
>> > But, I am disapointed with you.
>> > So you dont recognize your hostility towards your neighbours?
>> > Are you really a marxist or what?
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]>
>> > >Reply-To: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]>
>> > >To: [log in to unmask]
>> > >Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>> > >Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 03:06:02 -0500
>> > >
>> > >Tim writes:
>> > >
>> > >  "you read more into my comments  than I would think
>> > >supportable.".
>> > >
>> > >  I would say, in fact, that your response below indicates exactly
>> > >what I suggested: That you think primarily in terms of how the
>> > >elections impacts *America*, in the narrow, middle class,
>> > >eurocentric sense of the word.
>> > >
>> > ><<<<However, I *will* say that regardless of
>> > > > your political outlook, the USA presidential election was
>> > >conducted and
>> > > > peacefully settled according to democratic principles.>>>
>> > >
>> > >   Your so-called "democratic" principles are grounded in a system
>> > >that priviledges the rich AND/OR the politically connected at the
>> > >expense of the rest. By rich I mean having Scrooge McDuck like
>> > >pockets. Poltical connectness in the U.S. requires the type of clout
>> > >that would enable someone to rise from a ragged upbringing in
>> > >Arkansas to being elected President of the United States. The
>> > >latter *only* occurs by being attached to one of the "two" main
>> > >political parties., both of which are deeply entwined with the 5 % or
>> > >so of the population who controls the economy.
>> > >
>> > >What happens for virtually all  "independent" candidate in the U.S.
>> > >lacking in the funds to support their campaign is that they are
>> > >barred from the TV and radio airwaves. This since the TV stations
>> > >are controlled by big business or rich people who aren't interested
>> > >in supporting candidates not  alligned to the "two" main
>> > >representatives of the rich.
>> > >
>> > >Lacking in money or political connectsion leaves one without the
>> > >funds necessary to get a message across to the voting public -
>> > >exactly what a third candidate like Nader -- by no stretch of the
>> > >imagination a poor guy -- faced in this recent election and exactly
>> > >why a system, such as this, precludes any real possibility of
>> > >actual "choices" between candidates.
>> > >
>> > >  Your beloved racist, classist so-called "democratic" system also
>> > >either prohibits by law, or makes it virtually impossible for, a nice
>> > >chunk of your population to even vote.
>> > >
>> > >What a pathetic excuse for a democracy!
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Communicate your discontent about USA politics and foreign
>> > >policy all
>> > > > you like; that is or ought to be your privilege.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >Translation: You can criticize my country but it means you're my
>> > >enemy.
>> > >
>> > >So typical of the seige mentality that afflicts the majority of
>> > >Americans.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Subject:                RE: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>> > >Date sent:              Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:03:37 -0500
>> > >From:                   "Lillie,Timothy H" <[log in to unmask]>
>> > >To:                     "David Quarter" <[log in to unmask]>,
>> > >         <[log in to unmask]>
>> > >
>> > > > Well, all I can say is that I think you have read more into my 
>>comment
>> > > > than I would think supportable. However, I *will* say that 
>>regardless of
>> > > > your political outlook, the USA presidential election was conducted 
>>and
>> > > > peacefully settled according to democratic principles. In my book, 
>>if an
>> > > > election is democratically held and an outcome then occurs as the 
>>will
>> > > > of the people (whether or not I might agree with that outcome), 
>>then
>> > > > that settles it.
>> > > >
>> > > > Communicate your discontent about USA politics and foreign policy 
>>all
>> > > > you like; that is or ought to be your privilege.
>> > > >
>> > > > Tim
>> > > >
>> > > > Timothy Lillie, PhD
>> > > > Associate Professor
>> > > > The University of Akron
>> > > > Zook Hall 322
>> > > > Akron OH 55325-4205
>> > > > 330-972-6746 (voice)
>> > > > 330-972-5209 (fax
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: David Quarter [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> > > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 12:31 AM
>> > > > To: Lillie,Timothy H; [log in to unmask]
>> > > > Cc: [log in to unmask]
>> > > > Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >  I'm *somewhat perplexed* by Tim's statement that:
>> > > >
>> > > > Why are they [the Mirror] so
>> > > > > thin-skinned at a democratic (there are, so far at least, very 
>>few
>> > > > > reported problems in voting) outcome?
>> > > >
>> > > > Pexplexed in the sence that the statement's hard to rectify with 
>>the
>> > > > position of someone claiming allegiance to the social model,
>> > > > "somewhat" in that it is less hard to fathom when seen in the
>> > > > context of it being said by an American.
>> > > >
>> > > > AT least, the impression I got of the social model -- someone
>> > > > please correct me if I'm wrong -- is that the political is never
>> > > > divorced from the social. The two are seen  as connected. Yet the
>> > > > impression I get of your statement, Tim, is quite the opposite: 
>>that
>> > > > what happens in the U.S. only matters. That, for you, the human
>> > > > (social) consequences of the U.S. (political) elections is only to 
>>be
>> > > > interpreted within the confines of the U.S. state, divorced  from 
>>its
>> > > > impact on the rest of the world. What you label,  the "democatric
>> > > > outcome" for the U.S. should supercede all other concerns.
>> > > >
>> > > > Not that I imagine most citizens outside the U.S would in principle
>> > > > be against this idea. The notion of the American people/America
>> > > > being content solely with their own democratic outcomes would for
>> > > > most be a welcome breath of fresh air...surely, something to make
>> > > > Osama ecstatic about, that is, of course, if it were indeed the
>> > > > pattern. Alas,  this couldn't be further from the usual method of
>> > > > comportment of the U.S state. The fact is today, a few wealthy
>> > > > states, lead by the U.S. as self annointed "leader of the free 
>>world",
>> > > > makes decisions which generally affect  the rest of the world
>> > > > citizens, the majority in fact, in a negative way.
>> > > >
>> > > > Take Iraq, for example. Since the U.S., along with the British et 
>>al.,
>> > > > first turned against Saddam Hussein (formerly a client of your
>> > > > country) an estimated 1.6 mllion  Iraqis have been killed. They 
>>have
>> > > > died b/c of  10 years of vicious, brutal sanctions imposed on them
>> > > > under the reign of the father of your currently-elected president,
>> > > > sanctions which were then enthusiastly tightened under your
>> > > > subsequent president's (Clinton's) watch. And, in case you forgot,
>> > > > since Bush junior's took the decision to invade and occupy Iraq,
>> > > > countless more Iraqi people have died.
>> > > >
>> > > > More generally, billions of human beings are affected each an every
>> > > > day  by decisions taken on your country's behalf -- from as far
>> > > > away regions as South America all the way to the far east. For
>> > > > example, the farmers of India forced off their land by your  -GMO
>> > > > multinationals;
>> > > >
>> > > > ; The millions of Africans brutalized by military dictatorships or
>> > > > leadership supported by your government (often by way of the CIA),
>> > > > people who, in their state of suffering, have been denied basic
>> > > > resources such  as shelter and medicine, i.e., resources which
>> > > > western countries, but, more recently, cheifly your own
>> > > > government., either refuse to share with Africans or forcefully 
>>steal
>> > > > from them under the cloak of corporate "exporting" to the west.
>> > > >
>> > > > There are many more examples to list.
>> > > >
>> > > > What I would argue is that as long as the world continues to be
>> > > > affected adversely by the policies carried in the name of the U.S
>> > > > state, it seems only uncumbent upon us, as our democratic duty
>> > > > as citizens outside the U.S. (as well as for Americans who oppose
>> > > > the system) to communicate, by whatever means possible, our
>> > > > discontent toward your country's cherised "democratic outcomes".
>> > > >
>> > > > DOQ
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Date sent:            Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:58:23 -0500
>> > > > Send reply to:        "Lillie,Timothy H" <[log in to unmask]>
>> > > > From:                 "Lillie,Timothy H" <[log in to unmask]>
>> > > > Subject:              Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>> > > > To:                   [log in to unmask]
>> > > >
>> > > > > I'm standing a bit outside all this, since my connection to the
>> > > > > British world of disability studies has recently been weaker than 
>>it
>> > > > > once was but it seems to me that the discussion is likely a good 
>>one
>> > > > > if it results in a bit more civility in discussion of competing 
>>views.
>> > > >
>> > > > > Of course, it likely will not seem that way to the person or 
>>persons
>> > > > > who are personally savaged and I *know* that many 
>>diversity-sensitive
>> > > > > and inclusionary folks are VERY thin skinned when they feel they 
>>are
>> > > > > being criticized. Their immediate response, in my view, has been 
>>to
>> > > > > cry victim and demand an apology...while feeling that their 
>>critiques,
>> > > >
>> > > > > regardless of how personal they are are somehow justified.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Why do I mention this here?  Because of the headline Bob refers 
>>to in
>> > > > > the Daily Mirror figuratively weeping over the "dumbness" of
>> > > > > fifty-nine million Americans in choosing someone not acceptable,
>> > > > > apparently, to the Daily Mirror. I don't know the Mirror's 
>>politics
>> > > > > but from the reported headline they are obviously left of 
>>center.....
>> > > > > Why are they so thin-skinned at a democratic (there are, so far 
>>at
>> > > > > least, very few reported problems in voting) outcome? The answer 
>>might
>> > > >
>> > > > > be: because they think that people who don't share their view, 
>>like
>> > > > > those attacking Shakespeare personally, are simply stupid and 
>>evil.
>> > > > > Tell that often enough to someone and that person stops listening 
>>to
>> > > > > you.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > So be careful of how critiques are framed: even righteous 
>>liberals
>> > > > > (and conservatives, for that matter, who in my view are similarly
>> > > > > constructed) can be vicious and bigoted when *their* precious 
>>views
>> > > > > are critiqued.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Timothy Lillie, PhD
>> > > > > Associate Professor
>> > > > > The University of Akron
>> > > > > Zook Hall 322
>> > > > > Akron OH 55325-4205
>> > > > > 330-972-6746 (voice)
>> > > > > 330-972-5209 (fax
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > From: The Disability-Research Discussion List
>> > > > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bob
>> > > > > Williams-Findlay
>> > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 6:45 AM
>> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > > > > Subject: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I find myself strangely caught between Shirley's world and 
>>Havor's.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Early this week Tom and I had an exchange of words; my posting on 
>>the
>> > > > > List concerning his Ouch article was detailed and reasoned, I 
>>felt. On
>> > > >
>> > > > > Ouch itself, I admit I reacted from the gut and penned off a 
>>short,
>> > > > > journalistic style sound-bite response.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Tom characterised this as "personal abuse" and suggested I 
>>should've
>> > > > > focused on his "views"; my retort was that I believe a person's 
>>style
>> > > > > of delivery is as much a part of the debate as are the views the
>> > > > > individual expresses. I, therefore, stood by my decision to
>> > > > > characterise Tom as behaving like a Victorian Headmaster when he
>> > > > > addresses the Disabled People's Movement.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The problem is where do you draw the line? I hear what Shirley is
>> > > > > saying; but am I being hypocritical by saying that I think she 
>>was
>> > > > > unwise to voice it in the manner that she has?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Today, the British newspaper, the Daily Mirror, ran the headline
>> > > > > something
>> > > > > like:
>> > > > > Are 59,000 Americans that Dumb?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I believe this is no different; my thought processes went there, 
>>yet
>> > > > > the price of liberty requires us to accept the challenge of the
>> > > > > unthinkable.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Personally, I have distanced myself from Tom's views because many
>> > > > > contradiction some of the core values I have; no doubt what I do 
>>and
>> > > > > say outrage some people also.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > It's hard not to be outraged and to want to scrap with those who 
>>you
>> > > > > feel threaten or undermine what you hold dear. I'm not saint in 
>>this
>> > > > > field and I've been attacked several times for my outspoken 
>>bluntness
>> > > > > during a counter-attack.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > This said, I believe there's a great deal of validity in what 
>>Havor
>> > > > > was saying. Anger is a poor companion in a battle for people's
>> > > > > attention.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Bob Williams-Findlay
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ________________End of message______________________
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List 
>>are now
>> > > >
>> > > > > located at:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html
>> > > > >
>> > > > > You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ________________End of message______________________
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List 
>>are now
>> > > >
>> > > > > located at:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html
>> > > > >
>> > > > > You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >________________End of message______________________
>> > >
>> > >Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List
>> > >are now located at:
>> > >
>> > >www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html
>> > >
>> > >You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page.
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Horóscopo, tarot, numerología... Escucha lo que te dicen los astros.
>> > http://astrocentro.msn.es/
>> >
>>
>>________________End of message______________________
>>
>>Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List
>>are now located at:
>>
>>www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html
>>
>>You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page.
>I have replied Mr Quarter, privately, as it was a private conversation.
>Sorry about that
>Jorge
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Horóscopo, tarot, numerología... Escucha lo que te dicen los astros. 
>http://astrocentro.msn.es/
>
>________________End of message______________________
>
>Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List
>are now located at:
>
>www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html
>
>You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page.
I have replied Mr Quarter privately, as it was a private conversation.
Sorry about that
Jorge

_________________________________________________________________
Móviles, DVD, cámaras digitales, coleccionismo... Con unas ofertas que ni te 
imaginas. http://www.msn.es/Subastas/

________________End of message______________________

Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List
are now located at:

www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html

You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page.

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager