> Hello Bob,
            Thanks for your comments on this one. I´m not sure if I follow exactly the line of your argument here. We begin with what´s real and what isn´t, I think. And then we distinguish between the different types and how the terms `real´ or `in the mind´ might overlap in each case. So in real life when I really see a real bream it is in my mind since that is where sense perceptions are registered. And when we read a poem about a bream it can only exist in the mind even if the poem describes it as if it really existed in the real world. You can´t eat a bream from a poem, not matter how realistic it is. And finally there might be a bream in a poem which is not presented as being really in the real world at all, but is used as an image for something else. And now as I write this I think I might have just picked up your point. Bishop´s fish is presented both as if it is a real fish in the real world but it also functions within the poem as something else. My bream, even within the terms of the poem, exists only as an object in the narrator´s mind. There is some naturalistic description around it, but it´s not possible to maintain the illusion of a real fish because I have presented the narrator drawing the fish out of the lake by means of contemplation. As all fishermen know, this is not the way to catch your dinner. Is it this that is the source of your criticism? If so, I should maintain the illusion of the bream´s reality within the terms of the poem. I don´t think pulling it on a fishing line would work, but removing the phrase about drawing the bream by dint of contemplation and replacing it with a `real´ bream emerging from the depths would. 
It takes me a while to get to the bottom of things, but have I understood your point right here, or am I still floating about in deep water?


best wishes,   Mike


> Lähettäjä: Bob Cooper <[log in to unmask]>
> Päiväys: 2004/01/27 ti PM 03:31:22 GMT+02:00
> Vastaanottaja: [log in to unmask]
> Aihe: Re: Bream
> 
> Hi Mike,
> I'm butting in and making other comments too.
> This bream "might" be in your mind (as all breams you see are) but I don't 
> see why you can't take it as read that everyone who reads the poem ends up 
> with (a) bream in their mind! Know what I mean? For the reader of the poem 
> it's all appearing as it's read (as it was for the writer when it was first 
> written). You put the bream in the poem, post it here, and that bream floats 
> right into my head! The questions, tho, in subsequent drafts for the writer 
> incude "is this poem focused?"
> Have you read Elizabeth Bishop's poem The Fish? She catches hers (then lets 
> it go) - but I'm reminded of it none the less in reading your poem... (I 
> mean she ain't just talking about a fish, is she????)
> Bob
> 
> 
> >From: Mike Horwood <[log in to unmask]>
> >Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: Bream - Colin
> >Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 07:59:32 +0200
> >
> > > Hello Colin,
> >               Many thanks for your suggestions on this one and I´m 
> >certainly going to incorporate some, if not all, of them. Regarding your 
> >query about is the fish being pulled; of course, each reader makes their 
> >own mental picture of a poem but I imagined that the bream here exists only 
> >in the narrator´s mind. There is no real bream. The narrator begins by 
> >trying to revive a memory - `If I concentrate hard enough....´ , he tries 
> >to draw the components, images, mood, feeling, of that memory into 
> >consciousness. In the poem that action is imaged by the metaphor of the 
> >bream. So `I gradually draw the shape of a bream out of the lake´ refers to 
> >drawing the memory of that day into consciousness. The marks in the mud at 
> >the end could be read as impressions in the narrators memory. It could also 
> >be read as the poet drawing the words to make the poem out of his brain, 
> >literally `drawing ´ them on the page, although I understand that it´s not 
> >very popular to have the author so present in the poem. I´m not clear 
> >whether he/she can be present metaphorically, though ;->.
> >I hope this all makes some sense.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Best wishes,   Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > > Lähettäjä: Colin dewar <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Päiväys: 2004/01/21 ke PM 11:11:15 GMT+02:00
> > > Vastaanottaja: [log in to unmask]
> > > Aihe: Re: New sub: Bream
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > I like this one. It's easy on the ear and easy on the (inner) eye too. 
> >My
> > > first thought was that it can be condensed, but then I though, why? 
> >True,
> > > there are one or two redundant words, but then if I read through it once 
> >and
> > > derive a swift and satisfying flow of images then I may not need it to 
> >be
> > > shorter. Indeed it's possible that some of the condensations I could 
> >have
> > > suggested would have made it "longer" to read. Instead what I've done is
> > > suggest some changes that are meant to adjust the sound of the poem. Any
> > > improvement is subjective and it could well be that you prefer the sound 
> >of
> > > the original.
> > > Colin
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mike Horwood" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:23 AM
> > > Subject: New sub: Bream
> > >
> > > Bream
> > >
> > > If I concentrate hard enough, I will see it,
> > > that day like a Chinese watercolour
> > > with grey trees in a pale mist,
> > > CLIFFS in the distance,
> > > and two figures by a lake.
> > > A silent day with blank spaces,
> > > as comfortless as going barefoot on the shore.
> > > And what seems like stillness to a casual glance
> > > closer observation reveals ....DELETION OF "a"
> > > IS slight and intermittent stirring
> > > among the dripping boughs,
> > > like the suspicion of movement underwater
> > > where vision and imagination meet. DELETE  "at the point"
> > >
> > > By dint of careful contemplation, I grasp
> > > and store each hard-won glimpse
> > > of shade and change of tone that slides
> > > beneath the flash of surface light,
> > > THEN draw the shape of a large bream
> > > out of the lake´s dark depths. DELETE "into the shallows beside the 
> >jetty"
> > > TO TRY TO GET THE SENTENCE DOWN TO A SAYABLE LENGTH.
> > > It drifts among the stems,
> > > sifts the soft silt of past generations
> > > of water plants for nourishment,
> > > sucks and blows yellow ochre clouds
> > > and leaves these signs behind;
> > > pock marks in the mud, lines
> > > where its tail has dragged.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > ALSO I WASN'T SURE WHETHER THE FISH WAS BEING PULLED  ON A LINE OR HAD 
> >FOUND
> > > ITS WAY THERE OF ITS OWN ACCORD. D.K. IF THIS MATTERS. THERE IS OF 
> >COURSE
> > > THE POSSIBILITY OF A METAPHORICAL FISH FROM OTHER WATERS THAN THE 
> >LITERAL
> > > WATERS OF A RIVER.
> > >
> > >
> > > ORIG:
> > > Bream
> > >
> > > If I concentrate hard enough, I will see it,
> > > that day like a Chinese watercolour
> > > with grey trees in a pale mist,
> > > mist and shapes merging in the distance,
> > > and two figures by a lake.
> > > A silent day with blank spaces,
> > > as comfortless as going barefoot on the shore.
> > > And what seems like stillness to a casual glance
> > > a closer observation reveals
> > > as slight and intermittent stirring
> > > among the dripping boughs,
> > > like the suspicion of movement underwater
> > > at the point where vision and imagination meet.
> > >
> > > By dint of careful contemplation, to grasp
> > > and store each hard-won glimpse
> > > of shade and change of tone that slides
> > > beneath the flash of surface light,
> > > I gradually draw the shape of a large bream
> > > out of the lake´s dark depths
> > > into the shallows beside the jetty.
> > > It drifts among the stems,
> > > sifts the soft silt of past generations
> > > of water plants for nourishment,
> > > sucks and blows yellow ochre clouds
> > > and leaves these signs behind;
> > > pock marks in the mud, lines
> > > where its tail has dragged.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger 
> http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
>