Dear Frank,

we are not talking about conscious imitative work! We are talking about
reading a poet whose work affects us so much that our own work begins to
reflect their styles... and learning from that to write better, with a more
varied range of language tools at our disposal.

I agree that the spoken word has many advantages over the written word,
specially when you can get to hear the best poets in person. But what about
when you want to remember the work accurately?  When you want to go over it
again? When the writer is dead? perhaps you think disparagingly of "dead
white European" writing as the phrase goes; but writing brings us what used
to be in the world as well as what is in it now, and that's of some
importance in the long run!
bw
SallyE



on 6/7/04 10:13 am, Frank at [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Hi Bob.
>
> I too have consciously done imitative work. Mine though was imitative of
> songwriters rather than poets. I also have my writing heroes, but they are
> short story writers, not poets. SO in a way, I do the things we are
> discussing here - just not much with the work of other poets. In response to
> my 'I want to do that!' in response to the short story writers, I found it
> easier to tell my stories in a 'songy' style, eventually my own style -
> replete with deficiencies though it is.
>
> I agree that Murray is excellent to chat to in the flesh and to listen to. I
> really do get so much more from hearing him than I do from reading him on
> the page - there's no comparison.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>> Hi Frank, Sally, (all who're reading),
>>
>> I think I'm with Sally here, Frank.
>>
>> Why? You might ask, and if y do then here's an answer!
>>
>> Well, because if I hadn't read some poems that really hooked me years ago
>> I'd never have thought, "I wanna do that!" And I accept that lots of my
>> stuff was then purely imatative - but I gradually changed the subjects and
>> changed how mine looked and sounded too.
>>
>> I guess I read poems because I like poems. I read novels and stories, too.
>> But I sometimes see that a poem gives me as much, or more, than a novel or
> a
>> story. I like poems. I guess that this must rub off on my writing. When I
>> think back to when I started writing I thought all poems looked like the
>> poems I'd read and it was natural to imitate. I didn't know how else to do
>> it.
>>
>> And then, years after, when I got to meet some of the people who had
> written
>> the books I'd loved and learned I was amazed to see they were so ...
>> human(?), more human that the photos on the back of the books. I mean they
>> said "thank you," they drank beer, they talked and listened and laughed
> like
>> everyone else. (OK, I know there's also one or two who're a bit off as
> well,
>> but...). The myth that the best poetry comes from elsewhere is powerfull,
>> tho. I guess in England it exists too! Over the last few years people have
>> mentioned various places with awe: Newcastle, Brighton, London, Liverpool,
>> Manchester... as if they were Cheese Of The Week At The Deli. Hasn't it
>> always been so?
>>
>> And, changing the subject a bit, I find Les Murray the most gracious guy
> to
>> sit and have a beer with  - but I've heard he's got a big poetry-political
>> agenda - I guess it's just that we chat about things we trust won't cause
>> wobblies in the other. I don't find I keep pulling his books off my shelf
>> either. I used to think that was because I couldn't find an Australian
>> accent in my head because I first heard him read and then bought the
> books.
>> I guess it's also because he's a canny reader.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>> From: Sally Evans <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Frank and Ted - Frank
>>> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:34:56 +0100
>>>
>>> This is interesting - well I think you should read more Bukowsli - at
> first
>>> you might find your wwriting a little swayed by his, but then it would
> even
>>> out and you would write better as a result of having gone through the
>>> influence. That is how a lot of writers develop - by going through
> various
>>> influences as they extend their reading. Think what you are missing, what
>>> you are denying yourself by not reading something you would probably gain
>>> so
>>> much from!
>>> As for reading versus listening, listening is probably the better of the
>>> two
>>> forms, passing on more from the originator to the listener, but many of
> us
>>> so much enjoy reading that we would not be preared to give it up! Also
>>> reading links us back to writers in prevous centuries, though in future
>>> this
>>> will be able to be done in film and sound.
>>> bw
>>> SallyE
>>>
>>>
>>> on 24/6/04 3:59 am, Frank at [log in to unmask] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ah Sally,
>>>>
>>>> if only I could claim such lofty reasons.
>>>>
>>>> No, my main reason is simply that I don't enjoy reading poetry very
>>> much. I
>>>> prefer stories. Some poems are tell stories very well and I tend to
>>> enjoy
>>>> those most. Others have a certain something that clicks with me.
> Most -
>>> old
>>>> or new, modern or aincient simply doesn't appeal and I tend to avoid
> it.
>>>>
>>>> There is one exception in terms of my reasons for not reading. I read
> a
>>>> Charles Bukowski book a year and a half ago and was swept away by his
>>>> writing and the way he communicated etc Truly marvellous and I vowed
> not
>>> to
>>>> read any more because I was afraid I might end up unconsciously trying
>>> to
>>>> imitate him and found the thought frightening. A bit pretentious, I
>>> suppose,
>>>> but it scared me a little.
>>>>
>>>> I don't read Les Murray either and confess that I sometimes find him
>>>> difficult on the page, but quite excellent to listen to. It may be I'm
>>> more
>>>> a listener to poetry than I am a reader of it.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Frank - is the fact you dont read Ted Hughes to do with Les Murray
>>> saying
>>>> he
>>>>> wouldnt read English poetry and consequently hadnt read Keats? I
> could
>>>> fully
>>>>> understand this from the point of view of his objection to "Cultural
>>>> Cringe"
>>>>> ie assuming that English writing is better than ones own country's.
> The
>>>> same
>>>>> thing operates in Scotland. Its a twist of the 'dead white Europeans"
>>>>> syndrome indeed I should not be surprised if an Australian made up
> that
>>>>> phrase,
>>>>> Please comment
>>>>> bw
>>>>> SallyE
>>>>>
>>
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