Hi everyone, Chris seems to be having computer problems, and he's asked me
to forward this to the list.  thanks.
Jim

 _____

From: Chris Perley [mailto:chris,[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 May 2004 9:27 a.m.
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: FW: Energy flow is to ecology as ? is to economics





Been up north where the sun shines, and the beautiful people drive their
European cars and show off their Raybans.  Just filled the washing machine
with piles of smelling things - so don't expect a major argument from me!



Disagree that ecological economics is a 'branch' of environmental
economics. Some environmental economics texts still use the same axioms of
neo-classical economics, whereas Daly & Cobb's founding ecological
economics text (For the common good) starts out by rejecting rationality,
equilibrium et al.  So starting from different metaphysical positions,
while
environmental economics just looks at the environment through the same old
lens. (Not that environmental economics isn't a step in the right
direction - I think it is)



Incidentally, was reading Jane Jacob's The Nature of Economies while away.
A chapter (3 I think) on relating ecosystems with economies.



Ciao



Chris P



-----Original Message-----

From: Discussion forum for environmental ethics.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STEVEN BISSELL

Sent: Sunday, 16 May 2004 2:35 a.m.

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Energy flow is to ecology as ? is to economics



I've been skimming the literature this morning on this topic and have
found that one general issue is the confusion, or maybe it is more correct
to say 'incorrect' application, of the terms 'ecology' and 'environment.'
I am both an ecologist and an environmentalist. As an environmentalist the
current extinction event of, say, Amazon Parrots is a tragedy and needs to
be addressed by changes in environmental policy. As an ecologist it is, as
Mr.

Spock says, fascinating and needs to be closely observed and recorded.
Here is a definition of 'Ecological Economics' I found at
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Ecological_economics ;



"Ecological economics

Ecological economics is a branch of economic theory, also known as human
development theory or natural welfare economics, that assumes an inherent
link between the health of ecosystems and that of human beings. It is
commonly referred to as "Green Economics".

Its primary argument is that economics is itself a strict subfield of
ecology, in that ecology deals with the energy and matter transactions of
life and the earth, and the human economy is by definition contained
within this system. Chief among the critiques of current normative
economics by ecological economists is its approach to natural resources
and capital.

Analyses from the standpoint of conventional and environmental economics
undervalue natural capital in that it is treated as a factor of production
interchangeable with labor and technology (human capital). It is claimed
that human capital is complementary to natural capital rather than
interchangeable, as human capital inevitably derives from natural capital
in one form or another. It rejects the view of energy economics that
growth in the energy supply is related directly to well being, focusing
instead on biodiversity and creativity - or natural capital and individual
capital, in the terminology sometimes adopted to describe these
economically. In practice, ecological economics focuses primarily on the
key issues of uneconomic growth and measuring well-being. Ecological
economists are inclined to acknowledge that much of what is important in
human well-being is not analyzable from a strictly economic standpoint and
suggests interdisciplinarity with social and natural sciences as a means
to address this.



Ecological economics is conceptually related to the theories of Marx and
the more updated theories of analysts such as sociologist John Bellamy
Foster.

This is a more radical restatement of the views of green economists or the
more conventional environmental economics which do not so directly
challenge the classical ideas of growth or optimality."



Clearly this is not, as claimed, a departure from environmental economics,
just a modification or a branch. Maybe they should call it 'Deep
Economics'

(everyone else is doing that these days). Environmental economists are
rightly concerned with issues such as poverty, depletion of natural
resources, and such. Ecologists see these as short and long term phenomena
to be studied.



Gradually I'm getting my thinking straight. Hope this isn't boring
everyone (where is Chris P. from New Zealand? I thought this would get him
going)



Steven