Hi John
The way I see it -
1. In a residential home or nursing home the whole complex would be Part
III as amened by the specific rules for these premises which vary in
different parts of th UK and whether they are NHS operated/contracted
properties which have their own rules.
2. In sheltered and assisted housing the residential component is
normally in the form of a flat, bungalow, house which fall under Breg
Part M 6-10. Although evacuation requirements may need to be amended as
the residents may not be capable of evacuating via specified domestic
routes.
Any other facilities e.g. shop, laundrette, bingo hall would be Part III
and Breg Part B as these are services to those residents for which
payment is made by the resident to the operator. This may be a direct
payment such as coin operated washer, or an indirect payment made as an
inclusion as part of a higher 'rent' for their premises, which ever it
is still a paid service.
Part II would apply to any parts where employees work and are not
domestic. (see 4.e. below)
3. But a hostel, where rooms are provided along with other services in
one building, but does not fall under the residential home rules and
does not provide care services, and bingo is organised by the residents
in a communal area, would it
a) be a hotel and therefore under Part III? or
b) would you say it was residential?
4. In a related matter, who would you consider liable in the case of
a) a resident employing another to perform services
b) social services dept. providing a person
c) a charity providing a volunteer
d) a neighbour volunteer
e) a sheltered/assisted complex where a warden provides certain services
to the residents
to perform personal services, clean, cook, provide medical assistance,
provide emergency aid.
This is now becoming complicated because this has aspects relating to
the DDA and to the Health & Safety Regs.
i) who is responsible for supplying and maintaining equipment e.g.
lifting devices, power chairs, ?
ii) who is responsible for applying Health & Safety regulations in each
case, manual handling, CoSHH substances, etc.?
iii) who is responsible for providing the training needed by the carer?
iv) who is responsible for the insurance?
a while back it was noted on this list that a judge had ruled that a
carer could not use manual handling as a means of avoiding provision of
services if the person's condition prevented use of manual handling
equipment. We were promised a follow up on this but so far nothing has
been reported.
but this still leaves
the problem of say a warden in a sheltered complex who refuses to lift
someone as it could injure them and is not truly a part of their duties.
the judge also did not take into account the physical abilities of the
carer, a 10 stone 60 year old lady having to lift a 20 stone man from a
bath.
I still think there are too many gray areas which need more specific
guidance in the break down of residential and non-residential and in
personal services and how Part III interacts.
Also there is a need for more guidance on Health and Safety aspects, and
not from a judge with little knowledge of physiology, and work related
injuries, may be a 'commission' should look into this aspect made up
from people from a range of professions and needs?
Dave
John Gregory wrote:
>Hi Dave,
>
>Only if they are available to the general public and not restricted to
>tenants. If those areas you mention offer a service to anyone in the wider
>community then Part III applies.
>
>John.
>
>John Gregory
>Access Officer
>Cherwell District Council
>Tel. 01295 221630
>Email. mailto:[log in to unmask]
><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Croft Consultants [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 27 November 2004 12:44
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] Housing Associations and
>DDA 2
>
> Hi All
> in for another
> I would think that communal parts of a sheltered housing
>complex(e.g.
> laundrette, cafe, shop, swimming pool, gym, garden etc)
>would be Part
> III even though they are only open to residents because
>these are part
> of a service offered by the operators. Only the actual
>rooms/ flats/
> bungalows and corridors are treated as housing. For
>emergency and
> evacuation the complex is treated as Part III.
> That is the way sheltered housing operators are expected to
>perform in
> our county.
> Dave
>
> Al Hunt wrote:
>
> >Here's my two pence worth on this.....
> >
> >Our sheltered housing is treated the same way as any other
>dwelling...
> >
> >If a resident requires any adaptations in order to access
>their home,
> >then these are carried out on a one to one basis. Just the
>same as any
> >other householder would under the adaptations grant scheme.
> >Visitors would thus be the same as anyone visiting you or I
>at home. Not
> >covered by the Act.
> >Communal areas are accessible to the residents and if they
>have a
> >concert or bingo then they are all able to participate. I
>suppose that
> >visitors who enjoy the same concert or bingo would be
>covered by Part
> >III because it is then a service. I suppose whoever is
>responsible for
> >managing the communal part of the complex has a duty
>therefore under
> >Part III. (The Housing Association or the Council. What if
>the communal
> >room is considered part of the collective home though. EG
>what if you
> >were to hold a wedding party in a marquee in the grounds of
>your
> >home?... The mind boggles
> >
> >Alan
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Accessibuilt list
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> >Of John Gregory
> >Sent: 26 November 2004 12:08
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: Housing Associations and DDA
> >
> >
> >Helen,
> >
> >No problem regarding passing on comments.
> >
> >John.
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: helen kane [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >Sent: 26 November 2004 11:30
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] Housing Associations and DDA
> >
> >
> >
> >Thanks all, good to see people interested in the subject.
> >
> >Does anyone think it appropriate to pass these comments
>onto the DRC and
> >see what they have to say about it? They're really keen to
>clarify.
> >The RICS working party would also be very interested. I
>need consent
> >before I can pass info. on of course.
> >
> >Any clarity for surveyors would be appreciated,
>particularly as some
> >landlords have been serving notices on tenants to undertake
>often
> >unecessary and very expensive (eg £50k for a small
>shop)works under the
> >"DDA" banner. Most have no idea of the difference between
>parts II and
> >III, particularly in retail, let alone common v communal,
>multi-user
> >areas and the lack of "public" definition.
> >
> >Perhaps an article?
> >
> >Helen
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: david croft <[log in to unmask]>
> >>Reply-To: Accessibuilt list <[log in to unmask]>
> >>To: [log in to unmask]
> >>Subject: Re: Housing Associations and DDA
> >>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:57:41 -0000
> >>
> >>Hi All
> >>As Marcus says I.m willing to stick my oar in.
> >>
> >>The way I look at it in places like residential homes we
>need a two
> >>level
> >>
> >>
> >definition
> >
> >
> >>1. communal areas - areas where residents and their
>invited guests and
> >>
> >>
> >relatives have access, but are not open to members of the
>general
> >public.
> >
> >
> >>2. Common areas- areas which are used by non-residents or
>non-employees
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>of
> >>
> >>
> >the owners (be they a NHS, Housing Association or the
>residents
> >themselves.)
> >
> >
> >
> >> 2- common areas would be covered by Part !!! and where
>relevant Part
> >>II
> >>
> >>1. communal is more problematic. as
> >>if residents are paying for a the 'service' (out of their
>pocket,
> >>
> >>
> >insurance
> >payments, NHS payments etc.) i.e. they are paying more than
>would be
> >charged for their personal rooms, surely the building
>operators are
> >providing a service and the communal areas would then be
>part of the
> >'service' provided by the operator to residents and thus
>fall under Part
> >III. while the personal rooms would be residential and fall
>under
> >Building Regulations Part M sections 6-10.
> >
> >
> >>with Marcus post box comment, the way I see it -
> >>if they are purely for incoming mail which is sorted by
>the building
> >>
> >>
> >operator's employees Part II would apply to their
>employees, if
> >residents have to go to a specific pick up point for their
>box, it is a
> >service and should be covered by Part III. All at the cost
>of the
> >operator.
> >
> >
> >>if the boxes are provided by management and a post office
>employee
> >>sorts
> >>
> >>
> >the mail into individual boxes this would be Part III again
>at the
> >operator's expense.
> >
> >
> >>if the boxes are provided by the post office this would be
>part II for
> >>
> >>
> >their employees and Part III for the residents as this is a
>service.
> >
> >
> >>An outgoing mail box is the post office responsibility and
>a Part III
> >>
> >>
> >service.
> >
> >
> >>Dave
> >>
> >>
> >>----------End of Message----------
> >>
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>consultancy and the
> >>
> >>
> >distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and Inclusive Design
>programme
> >visit:
> >
> >
> >>http://www.inclusive-design.it
> >>
> >>Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located
>at
> >>
> >>
> >http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
> >
>
>
>
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