scuse me
I'm having a bad email day
i havent even finished this
if i want to submit it i'll send it again
L
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 06 March 2004 23:44
Subject: Re: God and Religion? Religion and God?
>Is it simply a conflation?
>
>I think the conflation is out there already, as it is with sensual / sexual
>
>I have been thinking on this thread and did join in, but managed to write
>b-c through inattention
>
>now's as good a time as any to say that I was thinking of this word
>"spiritual"
>and wondering what one does - I have some suggestions - about those who
>start out with statements like "I am a very spiritual person"....
>
>I am ahead of myself - I heard in recent weeks someone say on the radio "I
>am a very religious person; well, more than that I am a spiritual person"
>
>somewhere in the bits of my memories which were populated and programmed in
>my youth a shocked voice said "Strike her down, God"
>
>but I also thought of "when people believe nothing then they will believe
>anything" - who said that?
>
>& by association Joyce's Portrait: Will you become a Protestant Stephen - I
>said I had lost the faith, not myself respect
>
>Surely all we can do with a term like religious is to apply it were someone
>is seriously concerned about their relationship with God
>
>Where it gets interesting for me is when the poets try to get round the
>rules or argue with them. There's nothing so boring as agreement with the
>party line.
>
>It's the doubt and the quibbling that's much of the interest. Fake or
>assumed spirituality just winds me up. I got caught up in an odd
>conversation during the week about _Celtic ruins_ which lumped together a
>celtic church baptistry and the merry maidens and enjoyed the smoke screen
>that went up when I insisted that they are quite separate things
>
>The smoke screen was largely that there is so much we don't know and that
>putting flowers on stones that will allow that is a pretty spiritual act
and
>might be what our ancestors - given an invasion or two and a clearance or
>three - would have done
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rebecca Seiferle <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
>Date: 06 March 2004 19:13
>Subject: Re: God and Religion? Religion and God?
>
>
>Thanks, Pierre, for this post and including the translations
>and also too for mentioning Celan's letters to Nelly Sachs.
>
>Someone at the beginning of this thread, I think (and if
>I'm wrong, please pardon my memory) mentioned
>Dickinson as a 'religious' poet, and I think the same
>qualifications should be extended toward her work. That
>many of her poems as well are arguments with
>"the supposed 'God'" of her time, and that she was
>often deliberately, in a variety of poetic stances, "heretical."
>
>I don't know whether such poets should be called
>"religious." If by "religious" is meant an engagement
>with religious terms, views, and realities, yes, even
>if the engagement is a pained or blasphemous one.
>If by "religious" is meant an acceptance of those
>terms etc, then perhaps no.
>
>Though I should note in saying this, that there are obvious
>differences in Dickinson's and Celan's poetic engagement
>with God, as well as differences in the "God" they had to
>deal with,
>
>Best,
>
>Rebecca
>
>Rebecca Seiferle
>www.thedrunkenboat.com
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Pierre Joris <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Mar 6, 2004 6:00 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: God and Religion? Religion and God?
>
>Dear Alison,
>
>I don't think we should call Celan a "religious" poet -- he is a
>non-believer who has strong arguments with the supposed "God" of the
>Jews who permitted the Shoa to happen. His working through the Jewish
>esoteric tradition (Kabbala, Shekina, etc.) I see more as an
>investigation of cultural roots than a reference to belief structures.
>As in the following poem:
>
>Tenebrae
>
>
>Nigh are we, Lord,
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
>Date: 06 March 2004 22:57
>Subject: Re: God and Religion? Religion and God?
>
>
>>If one conflates spiritual with religious the category becomes
>>meaningless--probably the majority of poems ever written contain moments
>>that one or another reader would call "spiritual." Something akin to
>>conflating "sensual" and "sexual."
>>
>>If one calls religious any poem in which terms associated with a religious
>>tradition are significantly included, then the poem I just translated by
>>the thoroughly atheist Jewish poet Jose Kozer would have to be called
>>Catholic. To add slightly to Pierre's comment, in the case of Celan and
>>Jews in general terms of religion are equally terms of secular Jewish
>identity.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>At 09:11 AM 3/7/2004 +1100, Alison Croggon wrote:
>>>Hi Pierre
>>>
>>>Thanks for that poem - and far be it from me to argue with you on this!
>>>Still, in Celan's particular negations I have found some dare I say
>>>profoundly spiritual moments (Psalm, say) - and this quality of
>"attention"
>>>- does one have to be a believer to write a religious poem?
>>>
>>>Best
>>>
>>>A
>>>
>>> On 7/3/04 12:00 AM, "Pierre Joris" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Dear Alison,
>>> >
>>> > I don't think we should call Celan a "religious" poet -- he is a
>>> > non-believer who has strong arguments with the supposed "God" of the
>>> > Jews who permitted the Shoa to happen. His working through the Jewish
>>> > esoteric tradition (Kabbala, Shekina, etc.) I see more as an
>>> > investigation of cultural roots than a reference to belief structures.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Alison Croggon
>>>
>>>Editor, Masthead
>>>http://www.masthead.net.au
>>>
>>>Home page
>>>http://www.alisoncroggon.com
>>>
>>>Blog
>>>http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com
>>
>
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