On Sunday 25 January 2004 10:54, Mark Pasola wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 08:42:43 +0000, Adrian Midgley wrote:
> > On Sunday 25 January 2004 03:28, Mark Pasola wrote:
> > total crap which he could have avoided with 10 seconds of googling
>
> Bless you Adrian for your endearing turn of phrase, and for supplying
> confirmatory evidence that the BMA's most recent public comment (until
> this weekend) was more than twelve months ago.

I have done no such thing.  You stated that the BMA had not commented on this 
previously and I produced - very easily - public records from several years 
ago.

Now you are stating that the BMA has made no comment between 2002 and 2004 I 
take it?  It would be appropriate for you to actually look something up 
before spouting, but you may not have realised that these things come on a 
cycle which is usually annual - hence the BMA comments which come from the  
relevant student ctee - follow on an annual survey of what is actually 
happening.  I don't know when the students have their conference, but you 
will see press activity then.  

There 1420 references to this in 2003, some of which clump around the end of 
January, as they do this year, and others which spread thorugh the year.  



> The BMA has made none of her ancillary points, such as the fact that
> it is incumbent upon the state to subsidise training for a public
> service. One doesn't need to wholeheartedly agree to think that these
> points were worth making.

I've heard that point made many times.  How could anyone involved in the 
discussions not understand it.

As to the amount quoted:-
(another 10 second Google News)

Femail
"The BMA's medical students committee calculated the potential effects of 
variable fees on levels of student debt among those taking courses of five or 
six years to become a doctor. 

They found that a medical student in London whose parents earned £30,000 
between them could leave university owing up to £64,661 - 44% higher than 
debts currently and three times the basic salary of a first year doctor. 

The BMA said top-up fees would disadvantage medical students from all 
backgrounds, despite financial support measures announced by the Government 
for poorer students. 

They estimated that a medical student on a six-year course whose parental 
income was £15,000 could leave university owing £38,023 outside London, or 
£51,642 in the capital."

That isn't 64 000.  That certain reporters take the absolute maximum figure, 
as you do, suggests a casual approach to the data.


> Aside from that you quote evidence to a select committee in January
> 2002 and a third party survey published in student BMJ in 2001.

You stated that the BMA had not previously commented on this.  I pointed to 
comments one two and three years ago.  You were demonstrably wrong.

> Perhaps you think that the GBP refers en-masse to carefully saved
> back-copies when such matters become topical again.
That is monumentally unimpressive and sits badly with your already 
comprehensively refuted argument that nothing had been heard before and that 
this was bad.  So you blast without knowing of what you speak, looking where 
it is very easily found, and then being shown to be completely wrong you 
reverse your argument to say that what you had said was lacking is in fact of 
no use.  And then you volunteer to take over the representation of the wole 
profession with no viable organisation and a record of failure in producing 
one.  Or did you volunteer?  It does sound rather more as though "someone" 
had better do something.  

> The risk of deterring wide sections of the community from studying
> medicine is a real one. The BMA should have been knocking down the
> doors of the news Editors on this one for weeks - from the time when
> the current fee proposal took shape 

<boggle> you think this proposal is something that came up mere weeks ago?  
catch up!


> Instead, as usual, the BMA's contribution has been pathetic.  It only
> reinforces the impression that to get anything worthwhile done we will
> have to bypass our union.

The BMA's contributions are made by its members.  It is not credible that if 
you can't contribute anything useful in concert with the other members that 
you will form a useful group outside it, in short order.



-- 
Adrian Midgley                   (Linux desktop)
GP, Exeter
http://www.defoam.net/