Oh yeeahh !
Goat
In article <004c01c2e8e9$b2252d00$e177fea9@mydell>, Adrian Fogarty
<[log in to unmask]> writes
>I think what you're saying is, you want "reg level" pay, not "sub-SHO level"
>pay, 'cause you're effectively working at reg level responsibility. But you
>also need "consultant level" security of tenure, 'cause you need to make
>domestic commitments etc, unlike a reg who by definition has to be more
>"fluid". All sounds perfectly reasonable to me, Fiona, and if staff grades
>don't get this sort of recognition in the near future, our specialty really
>will suffer from a major manpower crisis. Am I on the right track?
>
>Adrian Fogarty
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Fiona Wallace" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 8:52 PM
>Subject: Re: Staff Grade predicament
>
>
>Some of you are missing the point!
>
>I have no wish to be a consultant - I want to stay in almost 100% patient
>care. I've yet to meet a UK consultant spending more than a couple of
>sessions a week on the floor. I'm not temperamentally suited to meetings,
>conciliation & so on. What I do enjoy is teaching - especially the new
>SHOs, and especially on the hoof.
>
>I don't care that those who have done the full reg training have gone past
>me - it's what they wanted, and good luck to them.
>
>But I don't like a system where those with no experience in the specialty
>earn more than me for the same (or better) hours - let's not forget I'm
>doing a 1:4 to 1:5 resident on call here. And I'm scared that my pension
>will be based on 33K, and I still won't be able to afford a house in the
>south.
>
>I'm exploring the masters in medical education, with a view to clinical
>tutor/university work - but I have the sneaking suspicion that, once again,
>the pay will only cut in for those at consultant level.
>
>I'm no longer in my twenties; I want to settle down. NZ and Aus are not an
>option, because I could never get permanent residency. I got tired of not
>knowing when I was going to get booted out; one of the reasons I came home.
>
>You have a pool of able and willing staff grades in the UK. It's not that
>we don't want to continue in the specialty, but that we may reach the point
>where we can't. The commitment and disruption are too great for the
>remuneration.
>
>And as I said, a pension based on 33K - how many of you would like that to
>be yours?
>
>Fiona.
>
>>personal reply Fiona but will put it on the list anyway
>>I have always repeatedly told the more able and intelligent of our MOSSs
>>(like the UK staff grade I suppose)to seriously consider knuckling
>down,s>it the exams and get on the training scheme. Precisely to try and
>avoid t>he kind of predicament you are now finding yourself in!
>>This is of course easier in Australasia where the training schemes are
>no>t so closed and competitive in some respects.
>>It must a real pain in the a... to see a younger colleague who has passed>
>the exams "overtake" you in terms of seniority and salary and then hav>e to
>work beside them doing much the same job -
>>especially if you actually see and treat more patients!
>>Not all my young colleagues have taken my advice though...
>>There are still parts of the world where as a staff grade type ED doc
>wit>h experience but no formal training you are well remunerated.
>>In costal Australia (not a main centre) one of our exMOSSs is now earning>
>180,000 Australian dollars for a 40 hr week of shifts
>>similar though not quite as excessive contracts can be negotiated in
>smal>ler centres in New Zealand which can simply not recruit specialists
>and w>ill always need staff grades. However our only remaining staff grade
>equi>valent here in Dunedin earns about the exact dollar equivalent of
>33,000 >pounds - about 90,000 dollars. This post will be phased out when
>she leav>es so that we only have specialists and registrars.
>>It is all about supply and demand.
>>Hope you get a big pay rise soon.
>>If not sunny small/medium town Australia or NZ beckons where life is good>
>, property cheap and a long long way from the troubled areas of the wo>rld!
>>JohnC
>>PS the exams are not that hard anywhere
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Fiona Wallace [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>Sent: Sunday, 9 March 2003 10:06 a.m.
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Trick & Teat is Dead
>>
>>
>>It's all very wellbemoaning this rate of pay or that rate...but when
>you'>re
>>a staff grade you're looking at roughly the same rate ie £33K for the
>>forseeable future. No fun when house prices average £180K.
>>
>>I am, quite seriously, beginning to panic about how I will survive
>>financially. The tiniest rental house costs over a third of my monthly
>ta>ke
>>home pay. My G reg car won't go on for ever (OK, it's a volvo, but even
>>so...). Council tax is likely to top £250 a month soon. And so it goes
>>on,
>>only the salary doesn't change.
>>
>>I'm not temperamentally suited to being a consultant. And I'm not after
>>that level of pay.
>>
>>I want to live, not exist. I didn't spend five years at uni and over a
>>decade acquiring skills in order to lie awake worrying about money.
>>
>>Fiona.
>>
>>>We should not blame AH or anyone else for getting a good deal for junior>
>>>docs. If anything it sets a benchmark for other grades. I think Nizam is>
>>>now
>>>involved in the consultant deal which is good, was he not known as BFN
>>(o>r
>>>something like that - best ******* negotiator - at the time?).
>>>
>>>I have to say that I am not looking forward to a significant pay cut
>whe>n>
>>I
>>>become a consultant later this year (if I get a job that is -
>>economicall>y
>>>it would be better to take a 2A clinical fellow post somewhere that is
>>pa>id
>>>the same as the SpRs!!!).
>>>
>>>Simon
>>>
>>>Simon & Fiona Carley
>>>[log in to unmask]
>>>http://www.bestbets.org
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Adrian Fogarty" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 1:15 AM
>>>Subject: Re: Trick & Teat is Dead
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Simon Odum"
>>>Subject: Re: Trick & Teat is Dead
>>>
>>>> I'm new to the site but I must agree with Danny. All of our Staff
>>Grade>s
>>>are
>>>> excellent and hard working, and are all earning significantly LESS
>tha>n
>>>our
>>>> SHO's. I think that some seroius thinking needs to be done if we are
>t>o
>>>> attract more high quality Staff Grades.
>>>> Agree that AH DOES have a lot to answer for!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>>Hold on a minute, why is everyone suddenly criticising AH? He did a damn>
>>>good job for the juniors, and just 'cause the seniors and the career
>>grad>es
>>>haven't got their house in order, is no reason to criticise his work.
>>>Admittedly the banding system is irritating in its construct; I imagine
>>w>e'd
>>>all have preferred to continue with ADHs but with enhanced rates. The
>>>banding system was intended to be of a punitive/deterrent nature.
>>>Unfortunately it's "backfired" a little as most juniors are still
>workin>g
>>>long hours, they're just getting paid ridiculous sums now which causes
>>>resentment elsewhere. Or else those who have reduced their hours have
>>onl>y
>>>done so at the expense of a sensible rota, i.e. now working split
>>weekend>s
>>>or partial shifts or the like.
>>>
>>>The remuneration loading is supposed to be prohibitive but it just
>cause>s
>>>huge anomalies. For example, my SHOs work approximately 20% over
>standar>d
>>>hours (48hrs v 40hrs) yet they receive an 80% enhancement in pay (band
>>2A>)!
>>>Similarly there are many who work 10% over standard hours (44hrs v
>40hrs>)
>>>yet they receive a 50% enhancement in total pay! Basically this amounts
>>t>o
>>>quadruple time or "time by 5" for on call work respectively! I'm on the
>>>doctors' side yet even I think this is ridiculous!
>>>
>>>This simply puts these inexperienced and relatively pampered first years>
>>>into the £40K+ bracket. This causes endless resentment among other
>gra>d>es
>>>who are more experienced, yet who only manage to earn in the low to mid
>>>£30Ks for the same amount of work but with higher levels of
>>responsibil>ity.
>>>And we wonder why we have a recruitment crisis among non-consultant
>>caree>r
>>>grades these days!
>>>
>>>But I'm still not sure we should somehow "blame" AH for this problem.
>Bu>t
>>>then again, maybe the Government were stung so badly by this, rather
>>>perfidious, deal, that they're now anxious not to get bruised again, and>
>>>are
>>>putting up a real fight with the seniors. That's very sad really, and
>>>perhaps a touch short-sighted, especially when you consider that we are
>>>juniors for a very short time in the overall scheme of things. And those>
>>>very juniors who won this particular battle are already now dug into the>
>>>trenches of the seniors' war, where they'll be holed up for a lot
>>longer.>..
>>>
>>>Adrian Fogarty
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>
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Dr G Ray
A&E
Sussex
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