I think what you're saying is, you want "reg level" pay, not "sub-SHO level"
pay, 'cause you're effectively working at reg level responsibility. But you
also need "consultant level" security of tenure, 'cause you need to make
domestic commitments etc, unlike a reg who by definition has to be more
"fluid". All sounds perfectly reasonable to me, Fiona, and if staff grades
don't get this sort of recognition in the near future, our specialty really
will suffer from a major manpower crisis. Am I on the right track?

Adrian Fogarty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fiona Wallace" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: Staff Grade predicament


Some of you are missing the point!

I have no wish to be a consultant - I want to stay in almost 100% patient
care. I've yet to meet a UK consultant spending more than a couple of
sessions a week on the floor. I'm not temperamentally suited to meetings,
conciliation & so on. What I do enjoy is teaching - especially the new
SHOs, and especially on the hoof.

I don't care that those who have done the full reg training have gone past
me - it's what they wanted, and good luck to them.

But I don't like a system where those with no experience in the specialty
earn more than me for the same (or better) hours  - let's not forget I'm
doing a 1:4 to 1:5 resident on call here. And I'm scared that my pension
will be based on 33K, and I still won't be able to afford a house in the
south.

I'm exploring the masters in medical education, with a view to clinical
tutor/university work - but I have the sneaking suspicion that, once again,
the pay will only cut in for those at consultant level.

I'm no longer in my twenties; I want to settle down. NZ and Aus are not an
option, because I could never get permanent residency. I got tired of not
knowing when I was going to get booted out; one of the reasons I came home.

You have a pool of able and willing staff grades in the UK. It's not that
we don't want to continue in the specialty, but that we may reach the point
where we can't. The commitment and disruption are too great for the
remuneration.

And as I said, a pension based on 33K - how many of you would like that to
be yours?

Fiona.

>personal reply Fiona but will put it on the list anyway
>I have always repeatedly told the more able and intelligent of our MOSSs
>(like the UK staff grade I suppose)to seriously consider knuckling
down,s>it the exams and get on the training scheme. Precisely to try and
avoid t>he kind of predicament you are now finding yourself in!
>This is of course easier in Australasia where the training schemes are
no>t so closed and competitive in some respects.
>It must a real pain in the a... to see a younger colleague who has passed>
the exams "overtake" you in terms of seniority and salary and then hav>e to
work beside them doing much the same job -
>especially if you actually see and treat more patients!
>Not all my young colleagues have taken my advice though...
>There are still parts of the world where as a staff grade type ED doc
wit>h experience but no formal training you are well remunerated.
>In costal Australia (not a main centre) one of our exMOSSs is now earning>
180,000 Australian dollars for a 40 hr week of shifts
>similar though not quite as excessive contracts can be negotiated in
smal>ler centres in New Zealand which can simply not recruit specialists
and w>ill always need staff grades. However our only remaining staff grade
equi>valent here in Dunedin earns about the exact dollar equivalent of
33,000 >pounds - about 90,000 dollars. This post will be phased out when
she leav>es so that we only have specialists and registrars.
>It is all about supply and demand.
>Hope you get a big pay rise soon.
>If not sunny small/medium town Australia or NZ beckons where life is good>
, property cheap and a long long way from the troubled areas of the wo>rld!
>JohnC
>PS the exams are not that hard anywhere
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Fiona Wallace [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Sunday, 9 March 2003 10:06 a.m.
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Trick & Teat is Dead
>
>
>It's all very wellbemoaning this rate of pay or that rate...but when
you'>re
>a staff grade you're looking at roughly the same rate ie £33K for the
>forseeable future. No fun when house prices average £180K.
>
>I am, quite seriously, beginning to panic about how I will survive
>financially. The tiniest rental house costs over a third of my monthly
ta>ke
>home pay. My G reg car won't go on for ever (OK, it's a volvo, but even
>so...). Council tax is likely to top £250 a month soon. And so it goes
>on,
>only the salary doesn't change.
>
>I'm not temperamentally suited to being a consultant. And I'm not after
>that level of pay.
>
>I want to live, not exist. I didn't spend five years at uni and over a
>decade acquiring skills in order to lie awake worrying about money.
>
>Fiona.
>
>>We should not blame AH or anyone else for getting a good deal for junior>
>>docs. If anything it sets a benchmark for other grades. I think Nizam is>
>>now
>>involved in the consultant deal which is good, was he not known as BFN
>(o>r
>>something like that  - best ******* negotiator - at the time?).
>>
>>I have to say that I am not looking forward to a significant pay cut
whe>n>
>I
>>become a consultant later this year (if I get a job that is -
>economicall>y
>>it would be better to take a 2A clinical fellow post somewhere that is
>pa>id
>>the same as the SpRs!!!).
>>
>>Simon
>>
>>Simon & Fiona Carley
>>[log in to unmask]
>>http://www.bestbets.org
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Adrian Fogarty" <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 1:15 AM
>>Subject: Re: Trick & Teat is Dead
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Simon Odum"
>>Subject: Re: Trick & Teat is Dead
>>
>>> I'm new to the site but I must agree with Danny. All of our Staff
>Grade>s
>>are
>>> excellent and hard working, and are all earning significantly LESS
tha>n
>>our
>>> SHO's. I think that some seroius thinking needs to be done if we are
t>o
>>> attract more high quality Staff Grades.
>>> Agree that AH DOES have a lot to answer for!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>Hold on a minute, why is everyone suddenly criticising AH? He did a damn>
>>good job for the juniors, and just 'cause the seniors and the career
>grad>es
>>haven't got their house in order, is no reason to criticise his work.
>>Admittedly the banding system is irritating in its construct; I imagine
>w>e'd
>>all have preferred to continue with ADHs but with enhanced rates. The
>>banding system was intended to be of a punitive/deterrent nature.
>>Unfortunately it's "backfired" a little as most juniors are still
workin>g
>>long hours, they're just getting paid ridiculous sums now which causes
>>resentment elsewhere. Or else those who have reduced their hours have
>onl>y
>>done so at the expense of a sensible rota, i.e. now working split
>weekend>s
>>or partial shifts or the like.
>>
>>The remuneration loading is supposed to be prohibitive but it just
cause>s
>>huge anomalies. For example, my SHOs work approximately 20% over
standar>d
>>hours (48hrs v 40hrs) yet they receive an 80% enhancement in pay (band
>2A>)!
>>Similarly there are many who work 10% over standard hours (44hrs v
40hrs>)
>>yet they receive a 50% enhancement in total pay! Basically this amounts
>t>o
>>quadruple time or "time by 5" for on call work respectively! I'm on the
>>doctors' side yet even I think this is ridiculous!
>>
>>This simply puts these inexperienced and relatively pampered first years>
>>into the £40K+ bracket. This causes endless resentment among other
gra>d>es
>>who are more experienced, yet who only manage to earn in the low to mid
>>£30Ks for the same amount of work but with higher levels of
>responsibil>ity.
>>And we wonder why we have a recruitment crisis among non-consultant
>caree>r
>>grades these days!
>>
>>But I'm still not sure we should somehow "blame" AH for this problem.
Bu>t
>>then again, maybe the Government were stung so badly by this, rather
>>perfidious, deal, that they're now anxious not to get bruised again, and>
>>are
>>putting up a real fight with the seniors. That's very sad really, and
>>perhaps a touch short-sighted, especially when you consider that we are
>>juniors for a very short time in the overall scheme of things. And those>
>>very juniors who won this particular battle are already now dug into the>
>>trenches of the seniors' war, where they'll be holed up for a lot
>longer.>..
>>
>>Adrian Fogarty
>>
>>
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>>
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