Alan - my thanks.  What you tell me is excellent ammunition in my battle against the "lets just scan it all any old how" brigade.  I'll make sure that any EDMS set up (and even this place will have to accept the need for it eventually) will be in accordance with PD 008 standards.  There does seem to be a bit more awareness around now of the need for audit trails and proper authentication of documents, so I am getting there slowly!

I have a feeling that problems have not surfaced yet because there's an absence so far of cases in which scanned documents have been used as evidence.  The Prof of Internet Law (Lars Davies) I mentioned actually said that lawyers were "rubbing their hands in glee" waiting for such cases to arise.

Clare

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Shipman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 21 February 2003 14:02
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Paperless office...


Hi Clare - I would like to respond to 'legal admissibility' comment that you
made.  I am one of the authors of PD 0008, and sit on a number of committees
looking at the long term storage issues with electronic records

I am interested in your comment 'are we really going to have time to scan
every document to that standard'.  PD 0008 is all about having good
trustworthy procedures, and about being able to demonstrate how an
electronic record has been protected whilst in storage.  I would argue that,
once you have set up good procedures (and used PD 0008 to check that this
has been done properly), then by following your procedures you should be
able to trust your electronic records

I would also argue (and expect a backlash!) that, if you do not follow PD
0008, then you may not have trustworthy electronic records, and should not
discard the paper originals!

Your comment about lawyers having a field day is also interesting.  To my
knowledge,
many organisations are scanning and destroying paper (some for at least 10
years), so far without any issues.  Maybe this is because they use PD 0008?
I agree that - if not properly protected - electronic records can be
maliciously or inadvertently changed.  But so can paper!  Ever heard of
paper files that have been altered or lost?  Do I remember a major
consultancy having issues with the loss of paper records?  This would not
have happened with a well run electronic system!

I agree that one of the main issues here is that EDM systems are not
(typically) records management systems.  They require a lot of thought
during implementation, and often add-on modules to cope with RM issues (ask
your EDM supplier how they cope with retention and destruction
requirements!)

I could also go on at length about long term retention issues - but I think
my email is too long already.  If anyone wishes to talk about that, please
do and I will respond

Regards

Alan Shipman

----- Original Message -----
From: "Clare Cowling" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 4:30 PM
Subject: Paperless office...


Can't resist adding my mite...

When I'm approached by EDM companies offering their wares I ask 2 questions:

1. What about legal admissibility of scanned documents?
2. What about medium to long term storage of electronic records?

Usually they say:

1. That's the organisation's problem.  How true, but if we are going to scan
everything and destroy the paper it's a major one.  A Professor of Internet
Law who gave a paper at one company's presentation said that lawyers will
have a field day with scanned documents because it is so easy to sow doubts
about their authenticity.  I know about BSI PD 0008, but are we really going
to have time to scan every document to that standard?  Or are we expected to
keep the paper as well, just in case? What case law has there been so far?
(He also, incidentally, said that hard copies of email would not be legally
admissible in court....)

2. Bung it on a CD because CDs last forever (forever to an IT company, as we
all know, usually means 6 years).  Uh huh.

I expect a bit more awareness about these problems if I'm going to advise
the University to shell out trillions for an EDM system.

When staff here talk about the paperless office I advise them that an EDM
system will require even more records management than paper, because EDM
can't work without proper R/M e.g. we will have to have registration,
standardised terms, version control, email management, retention schedules
etc etc etc.  That usually horrifies them into silence.   I also point out
that we are going to have a hybrid system here for many years yet, because
we don't have the money at present for an EDM system.

More discussion!  It's all been most useful.

Clare Cowling
University of London Records Manager