David
In someway I agree with you but do we have to always insult people back when
they insult us ? is this not coming down to that persons level. Is not
constructive criticism more empowering ?
Colin R
----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: "ColRevs" <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: An open-debate on NeuroDiversity ! No Labels,
Colin,
IN all fairness to Larry, I think Steven's post went beyond opinion --
it was quite insulting. I'm open to anyone's differing opinion or
argument, but if that translates into attacking other people -- be
that in the abstract -- then be prepared to accept "harsh" criticism
in response.
David
Date sent: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:47:14 -0000
Send reply to: ColRevs <[log in to unmask]>
From: ColRevs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: An open-debate on NeuroDiversity ! No Labels,
To: [log in to unmask]
> Larry
> Why do you have to be insulting to others when they have differing views
to
> yourself and attack them personally.
>
> I have respect for your views and sometimes I agree with you and others
> times I disagree, but this does not have to become personal.
>
> Each person as the same basic human right to freedom of expression and I
and
> others should respect differing views and ideas and long they are not
> abusive and threatening to others and infringe on their basic human
rights.
>
> In my post on NeuroDiversity my aim has been to open-up this debate to
> others as like many on this list and other forums there is confusion
around
> what NeuroDiversity means ? This is part of my own personal re-learning ?
>
> I for-one are confused and trying to deconstruct this term and see what
> other people understand around this term and listen to their views and
> ideas. Is this a crime and this means you have a right to personally
attack
> me ?
>
> Can you please reflect on how your posts will come-across to others before
> you send them. As I said I respect your opinions, so please can you
respect
> mine and others ?
>
> Regards
>
> Colin Revell
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Arnold" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 1:00 PM
> Subject: Re: An open-debate on NeuroDiversity ! No Labels,
>
>
> I think you are being very insulting,
>
> Neuro diversity is a common and non disablist term for a number of well
> recognised disabilities if you prefer to keep within the medical model
which
> seems to be the case from your post
>
> I have not invented any of the impairments I am diagnosed with, your
> attitude is typical of the kind of thing that people with less visible
> condition have to face and it appears to me you have mentally consturcted
a
> mental heirarchy of valid impairments
>
> It seems as if you require the medical model to validate the social model
>
> Well I am autistic, dyslexic and dyspraxic within every criterion that has
> been established to allow me to legally describe myself as such. However
> neurodiversity as a concept bears the interelationship of what would
> otherwise within the medical model merely be "comorbidities"
>
> The genetics of some of these conditions do also predispose some people to
> physical characteristics, like hypermobility which can lead to erly
> arthritis,
>
> I am too busy for this debate at the moment, but there are many issues
> around social construction and diagnosis you need to consider before being
> so patronising and dismissive
>
> As for demanding cures I think you have seriosly misunderstood the debate
> which has perhaps not been well represented.
>
> My brain is as different as yours is, cognition proceeds from neurology
and
> until now differential neurology has not been visible unless we die first
> and are dissected, spect and pet scanning and MRI now allows these
> differences to be percived for the first time. Nuff said,
>
> Larry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: The Disability-Research Discussion List
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Simon Stevens
> > Sent: 19 January 2003 12:48
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: An open-debate on NeuroDiversity ! No Labels,
> >
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I have attempted to understand with neurodiversity with little success.
> > It sounds like a self-defined impairment which people who want their
> > social problems to be excused and medicalised to reduce their
> > responsility.
> >
> > I have cerebral palsy and is as real as a glass of wing, and no matter
> > of socialist imagination will stop of fact I have an real impacted. I
> > accept many new impairments are just made up so non-disabled people make
> > an mockery of disability and impairment. I am happy and proud of my
> > labels!
> >
> > I wish people would stop pretending to have impairments that doesn't
> > exist since I feel it is making a mockery of disabled people. Has the
> > social model been scraps in preference to an stronger medical model?
> >
> > I personally not letting my life be put on the life because other people
> > want to take the pissed and demand cures for make believe.
> >
> > Many Thanks, Simon
> >
> > --
> >
> > Simon Stevens
> > Managing Director, Enable Enterprises
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > NEED INSTANT ADVICE?
> > CALL 247 INSTANT ON 090 904 80000 (£1 PER MINUTE)
> >
> > PO Box 1974, COVENTRY, CV3 1YF
> > Tel: +44(0)24 7644 8130 (Sales 0800 358 8484)
> > Fax: +44(0)870 133 2447
> > IM: enableenterprises (Yahoo/AOL) simonenable (MSN) 155158793 (ICQ)
> >
> >
> > Personal site: www.simonstevens.com
> > Company shop: www.enableenterprises.com
> > Free Newsletter: www.contactexpress.biz
> >
> > Join our FREE newsletter, send blank email to [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: The Disability-Research Discussion List
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mariab
> > Sent: 19 January 2003 12:35
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: An open-debate on NeuroDiversity ! No Labels,
> >
> > Hi Charmine;
> >
> > There is a group of people (some on this list who advocate this idea) a
> > great paper by Shelley Tremain, makes that point as well. In practical
> > terms however, within the constraints of the society that we live in I
> > don't see how this would work. I sure wish it did.
> > Maria
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Charmaine Driver" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 1:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: An open-debate on NeuroDiversity !
> >
> >
> > > Hi Colin et al
> > >
> > > I am most interested to read you views and perspectives on the
> > challenges
> > > and difficulties faced by neurodiverse people within many areas of
> > society.
> > >
> > > I have been thinking for a while now that all disability categories -
> > be
> > > they the historical ones or the more recently voiced labels such as
> > > neurodiverse (or for that matter neuro-typical) are in and of
> > themselves
> > > disabling. I am interested to know what you think of the idea of
> > getting
> > rid
> > > of any language or label that refers to some sort of category of
> > disability.
> > > Instead I feel there is at least some value in replacing these sort of
> > > 'disability-specific labels' with language that refers to peoples'
> > > functioning and strengths and ways to maximise people's choice,
> > presence
> > at
> > > places they want to be, access to places and activities and services
> > they
> > > see as useful, participation in programs, work, lifestyle and life in
> > ways
> > > that seem good to them, and opportunities to achieve as well as they
> > can.
> > >
> > > This might seem simplistic but my work and experiences seem to be
> > leading
> > me
> > > to a position away from 'disability' and 'labels' and towards a
> > position
> > of
> > > inclusion and welcoming all people within society so that everyone can
> > > really enjoy quality of life - whatever that is for each one as an
> > > individual. I realise that in some parts of the world this would
> > constitute
> > > a huge social change agenda.
> > >
> > > All of that said, I also think that in the school room and workplace,
> > as
> > > well as society in general, there is a huge need for strategies and
> > > opportunities for teachers, community members and bureaucrats who make
> > and
> > > steer policy, to improve their understanding of the way that various
> > people
> > > see the world, process experience and react / act in various
> > situations.
> > > Inclusion is great ... but I am not at all convinced that inclusion
> > can be
> > > achieved through a one-size-fits-all methodology - for schools,
> > workplaces
> > > or society. For everyone to really belong, I think that different ones
> > might
> > > well need different opportunities, experiences and perhaps a range of
> > mentor
> > > s and coaches such as many people use already.
> > >
> > > I am really keen to hear what people think about these ideas ...
> > especially
> > > as they might be constructed within re-conceptualisation of education
> > > systems to achieve inclusive frameworks and maximised educational and
> > life
> > > outcomes for school students.
> > >
> > > Charmaine Driver.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "ColRevs" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 5:07 AM
> > > Subject: An open-debate on NeuroDiversity !
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi, My name is Colin Revell, Hull, England.
> > > >
> > > > I'm the founder of Hull and East Yorkshire NeuroDiversity Action an
> > > educational socio-political, socio-psycho/medical 'users' human and
> > civil
> > > rights group.
> > > >
> > > > The group is about challenging Social Exclusion through a process of
> > > re-learning and re-education. It's around challenging dominant
> > ideologies
> > > and discourses and out-dated views, prejudices and stereotypes within
> > the
> > > media and society.
> > > >
> > > > This group is new and also the understanding of NeuroDiversity is a
> > term
> > > that is not well recognised and accepted within society. There are
> > > psycho-socio-political reasons for this and also the imbalance of
> > power
> > > within society with dominant discourses and ideologies, especially in
> > the
> > > medical model and psychiatry and psychology.
> > > >
> > > > I need to open up the debate on a working definition of what
> > > neuro-diversity means to others ? Who do we define as neuro-diverse?
> > > >
> > > > I'm aware at present that individuals with Autistic Spectrum
> > > Disorders(Aspergers Syndrome), Dyspraxia(Developmental Co-ordination
> > > Disorder), Attention Deficit (Hyperactivity) Disorder(AD(H)D,
> > Attention
> > > Deficit Disorder(ADD) ( not everyone with concentration and attention
> > > problems have 'Hyperactivity', especially as this wax and wanes at the
> > > beginning of Adolescence, and for some individuals in adulthood it
> > > disappears altogether, but not for all adults), Dyslexia, Irlen
> > Syndrome,
> > > Central Auditory Processing Disorder, Semantic Pragmatic Disorder and
> > other
> > > Specific Learning Difficulties(SpLd's), Chronic Fatigue Syndrome(M.E),
> > > People who hear voices, Bi-polar(Manic) Depression.
> > > >
> > > > As you can see all these are medical terms, except People who hear
> > voices.
> > > >
> > > > I'm in the opinion that individuals have the right to
> > self-determined
> > > labels, which challenges the dominant discourses and ideologies, in
> > which
> > > creates negative stereotypes and stigma. These medical labels have a
> > > detrimental effect on an individuals self-esteem and their needs to be
> > a
> > > challenge within NeuroDiversityAction, in deconstruction of these
> > negative
> > > labels into individual positive identities.
> > > >
> > > > As I said I want to open-up the debate around NeuroDiversity and
> > would
> > > welcome your views, ideas and opinion around how I and others can take
> > > NeuroDiversity forward within the 21st Century, in the globalised
> > world,
> > at
> > > Local, National and International levels.
> > > >
> > > > I would welcome your thoughts on whom should be included and defined
> > as
> > > NeuroDiverse ?
> > > >
> > > > Who do we include as NeuroDiverse and then who do we exclude ?
> > > >
> > > > As many of you may beware that within NeuroDiversity cultures their
> > is a
> > > term called NeuroTypicals( this is the term used by NeuroDiverse
> > individuals
> > > for individuals whom are not-NeuroDiverse). There are many disabled
> > people
> > > who are NeuroTypical, so these individuals can't be included.
> > > >
> > > > Many NeuroDiverse individuals are excluded within society and have
> > > difficulties with personal and sexual relationships. They also have
> > the
> > need
> > > to discuss sexuality issues. but have no-one to turn to, due to their
> > > isolation and the statutory health and social services not meeting
> > their
> > > needs.
> > > >
> > > > What do others know about a U.K charity called SPOD ?
> > > >
> > > > This organisation campaigns for a better understanding of the
> > sexuality
> > > and sexual needs of disabled people.
> > > >
> > > > I had a conversation early last year with someone from SPOD and I
> > was
> > > informed that many of their queries are from men who are neuro-diverse
> > with
> > > Aspergers Syndrome. Their queries are mostly around the use
> > prostitutes
> > and
> > > escorts.
> > > >
> > > > This person and I discussed the need for sexual surrogates, in which
> > is
> > > happening some disabled people in London and other areas of the U.K.
> > The
> > use
> > > of sexual surrogates are commonly used across many parts of Europe by
> > the
> > > health and social services and sex is accepted as a basic human need
> > for
> > > disabled people.
> > > >
> > > > What are people's views on sexual surrogates for NeuroDiverse
> > individuals
> > > ?
> > > >
> > > > Is NeuroDiversity an impairment? Do you believe that NeuroDiverse
> > > individuals should be categorised as a disabled person ?
> > > >
> > > > How does NeuroDiversity fit-in with the social model of disability ?
> > > >
> > > > So, this is why I need your support an open-debate ?
> > > >
> > > > NeuroDiverse individuals have the same basic human needs as all
> > human
> > > beings, but as I said they are excluded, why ?
> > > >
> > > > What are the environmental barriers and threats to NeuroDiverse
> > > individuals. Chemical and food/drink allergies and Intolerances ?
> > > NeuroDiversity individuals are more at threat by environmental toxins,
> > due
> > > to their genetic-sensitivities.
> > > >
> > > > This is a basic human rights issue due to the damaging effects of
> > these
> > > toxins of neurodiverse individuals physical body and mind, in which
> > impacts
> > > on their mental health.
> > > >
> > > > NeuroDiverse individuals may have great difficulties metabolising
> > these
> > > toxins from their bodies and this impacts on their minds.
> > > >
> > > > They need access to detox and should have the right to be prescribed
> > > alternative medicines, drugs, treatments and therapies. It had been
> > well
> > > researched that neurodiverse individuals have adverse side-effects to
> > many
> > > prescribed drugs, especially psychiatric drugs, in some cases have
> > been
> > > fatalistic.
> > > >
> > > > What are the learning, structural, social, cultural, attitudinal
> > barriers
> > > ?
> > > >
> > > > How can NeuroDiverse individuals be more socially,cultural and
> > > economically included ?
> > > >
> > > > Are NeuroDiverse individuals the genetic underclass of the 21st
> > Century
> > ?
> > > >
> > > > What are people's fears around genetic engineering and cloning ?
> > Does
> > this
> > > mean that NeuroDiversity will be eradicated from the genepool and
> > society
> > in
> > > the future ?
> > > >
> > > > Any more questions would be welcome in this open-debate!
> > > >
> > > > Larry Arnold, If you can express your personal experience and views
> > this
> > > would be welcomed.
> > > >
> > > > Larry or any other person with a interest in this subject can you
> > please
> > > send a copy of this e-mails to other relevant forums on the internet
> > who
> > you
> > > believe should be included in this debate.
> > > >
> > > > People can also e-mail me privately and confidential with their
> > > constructive views, idea's and opinions. I will not accept any
> > abusive
> > > e-mails, so don't waste your time if you are not prepared to give
> > > constructive criticism. My e-mail address is:-
> > [log in to unmask]
> > > >
> > > > If any neuro-diverse individuals want to join NeuroDivergent Action
> > then
> > > the is a yahoo support group/forum at:-
> > > > [log in to unmask] . This is a support
> > group/forum
> > only
> > > for neurodiverse individuals and you need to go through the moderators
> > to
> > > join.
> > > >
> > > > I hope to hear from you all and your interesting constructive views.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Colin Revell
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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