Good thoughts Bob. But Thatcher was right you know: there is no such thing
as "Society" - there is no *Them* who are responsible for the way things
are. Society is just a name for *us*.

Personally I think we get the Society we deserve. After all we are the
opinion formers, so we are responsible for the new orthodoxy. Why is it, for
instance, that Zen metaphysics are OK but Christian metaphysics are not? Why
can poet B go on at length about 'black consciousness' but poet C gets
howled down as a racist if they get up on stage and do exactly the same
thing about 'white consciousness'. Who creates these boxes? Who decides what
we're allowed to say? We do.

It saddens me that while all of these middle aged people are deluding
themselves that they are still young and radical what the *real* young are
actually listening to is Eminem.

To me the problem with David's poem was neither its subject, its tone, nor
its frame of reference - it was just an extremely poorly executed piece of
work.

Best wishes, John




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Cooper" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "John Carley" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Nearer to Thee


Hi John,
Thanks for your reply to my question about "public poetry". (I read it,
enjoyed what you said, but then I've been too busy to reply straight away).
I think you make good points.
What you say about Performance Poetry is interesting. I must admit I often
feel emotionally unmoved when I've been to venues that have given an open
floor to the ranters and ravers. Some of the more accomplished performers,
however, appeal to me because they are offering more than tabloid headline
poetry. I guess I'm as weary of poems about cliché as I am with poems that
are peppered with cliche, but if I'm struck by the slant they take on
things, I want to applaud. "Tell the truth, but tell it slant." as Emily
Dickenson phrased it.
Also, to my shame, I have to admit I haven't listened to much Rap. I guess
that's poetry that people buy, listen to, and walk around with its phrases
chanting in their heads. If I could find a rapper who wears the same kind of
shoes as me, shares some of the things I share, I might feel more
enthusiastic. (. H'm, maybe I still think of M&Ms as Treats! Eminem sounds,
to me, like a bag of sweets with a wrapper that's now too tough to open).
And then you ask, "What happened to poetry as prayer, or poetry as greeting,
as augury or eulogy?" And that's a powerful question - one I've been
thinking about since I read your message! I believe poems are written about
big subjects: they are pleas, petitions for change, prompts that say, "so
what are you going to do about it?" Anger, joy, loss, and praise prompt
poetry, and poets, but our culture seems to let them be squeezed out of us
in different forms to what's happened in the past.
And I guess, as Mrs T said it, we're living in an age when "there is no such
thing as society." We're in a "me" culture. (I don't like it, but I have to
live with knowing that!). Maybe that's why I felt awkward about the
inclusivity of David's poem, I still do. In fact I've been trying to think
of poems that include "We" that've been popular in the last few years. All
I've been able to recall is W.H. Auden's 1st September 1939 that was
whizzing round the Web just after 9-11 - that starts in the "I" voice but
ends with a big "we" statement. Maybe the Auden poem was being shared
between people because they had nothing else, nothing more contemporary,
which fitted the mood of the time.
So, even tho things may appear bleak in our culture, they don't feel as
bleak in my thinking as when I first asked my question.
Bob



>From: Carley <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Nearer to Thee
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:10:18 -0000
>
>Hi all, below Bob articulates with commendable frankness a type of comment
>frequently heard on poetry such as 'Nearer to Thee' which takes as its
>subject some ghastly personal horror. I think it is fair to say that
>irrespective of the success or otherwise of David's treatment of this
>particular material such criticisms would nonetheless be levelled. Bob goes
>on to ask: "Can public poems be written these days?"
>
>It's a good question. If by 'public' one intends 'dealing with public
>affairs, with actuality,' the answer is most surely 'yes'. One has only to
>go to the Corner Bar in Manchester, New York or wherever, to hear any
>amount
>of poetry which, for so long as it is expressive of a suitably narrow vein
>of leering non-thought, will have the Saturday night radicals howling for
>blood... pizza... or both.
>
>This is 'performance poetry'. But is it 'performative'? Is it 'making a
>statement'... or is it just supplying off-the-shelf opinions to people too
>stupid and lazy to do anything other than be fashionably alienated?
>
>My own belief is that the best of this agitprop ranting is indeed both
>'performative' and very good (oral) poetry. But it is odd that this
>particular strand of performative work is often the only one seen as
>'rational' or 'reasonable'. Whatever happened to poetry as prayer? Or
>poetry
>as greeting, as augury, as eulogy?
>
>I have a slight knowledge of the position poetry plays in the cultural life
>of Bangladesh, and of Japan. These are radically different societies, yet
>in
>both poetry does indeed discharge the full range of  'performative'
>functions. Poetry, in short, is a core cultural component: people read it,
>people write it, recite it, care about it.
>
>Here I suppose it's a bit like the man at the doctor's:
>
>"Bad news I'm afraid, it's Alzheimer's."
>"And the good news!!?"
>"In a fortnight you'll have forgotten about it."
>
>Once our mirror-image secular rationalism has finally managed to kill off
>the last vestiges of interest in poetry we'll all be too post-modern to
>notice.
>
>now they sleep
>safe from the tyrant's rage
>and winter's storm                       dick
>
>my sheepskin coat returns
>to Oxfam's window                      frank
>
>(Dick Pettit and Frank Williams from 'The Scent of Lemons')
>
>Best wishes, john e c
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
>Hi David,
>I'm worried about this poem, too.
>I've read it once and I don't want to read it again... that's a bad sign
>for
>me.
>Somehow it seems as if I want to say: "No... I'm not part of the We this
>poem is speaking for" - (even though I might be... but I don't think I am!
>I
>just don't want to study the poem more closely, read it again, to find
>out).
>I sort of feel I don't want someone to say these things on my behalf. I
>feel
>that those closer to the events and experience probably don't need this
>said. I feel I don't want it said on my behalf either.
>Cruel to say, like all the Diana poems that appeared, I guess it'll not be
>remembered - it's a forgettable poem (about an unforgettable subject).
>Can public poems be written these days?
>Bob
>
>
> >From: David Anthony <[log in to unmask]>
> >Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Nearer to Thee
> >Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:32:54 +0000
> >
> >Nearer to Thee
> >
> >We scanned the headlines for the news
> >and sensed what was to come:
> >those children in the photograph
> >would not be coming home.
> >Small hope surrendered with a bleak
> >announcement on TV,
> >and someone played a brave old tune-
> >"Nearer, my God, to Thee."
> >
> >Can God be near when malice lurks
> >throughout the world He made;
> >when every generation sees
> >its innocents betrayed?
> >Each evil lessens all of us-
> >Who lets such evil be?
> >Grief fills Thy churches, grief and shame,
> >and brings us nearer Thee.
> >
> >We search for meaning, finding none;
> >for hope where hope has died.
> >We learned this lesson long ago
> >when Christ was crucified:
> >untainted lives are beacons, bright
> >however dark the sea.
> >Take them, take them; take our hopes,
> >and hold them near to Thee.
> >
> >(in memory of Holly and Jessica)
> >(Revision)
> >
> >http://www.davidgwilymanthony.co.uk/
>
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