> Hello Helen,
              Many thanks for this lucid explication and I think I can see how the theory works here. I guess there is a degree of flexibility (which might also be called uncertainty or disagreement) as to what exactly constitutes an appropriate connection between the two components of the metaphor or similie. It´s not surprising, and perhaps not a bad thing, either, that such disagreements should arise, different readers having different ways of responding to language. I think that in an extreme form inappropriacy should be fairly clear and recognised as such by most readers. A good example might be one I know of from Tristram Shandy when Corporal Trim, in a burst of patriotic and anti-Jacobite fervour, expresses his belief that the King deserves his crown as a thief deserves hanging. The deserts in the case may be similar (at least in the 18th C mind) but other qualities in the comparison are far from Trim´s meaning. That´s clear, but how far should we as readers examine the secondary, tertiary ets qualities of an image when testing its appropriacy? This, I think, might be a fruitful area to examine further. Bob Cooper made a reference to this in his comments on one of his own poems, Burning the Fiesta, I think, last spring and I saved it because I wanted to raise the issue, but never got round to it. 
I won´t be on-line over the weekend but I´ll try to formulate some thoughts and post them on Monday. If anyone has comments on this topic, I´d be very interested to hear them.



Best wishes,    Mike



> Lähettäjä: Helen Clare <[log in to unmask]>
> Päiväys: 2003/11/21 pe AM 09:39:04 GMT+02:00
> Vastaanottaja: [log in to unmask]
> Aihe: Re: Dents (Mike)
> 
> Mike
> 
> Something is going deeply wierd with The Works. Your comment was somewhere
> at the bottom of a load of gobbledygook.  Hope mine gets to you better.
> 
> My cryptic comments about assuming our experience is universal was actually
> intended for Sue - who framed the fact that she didn't quite 'get' a simile
> in terms of the response of an average reader and later 'any' reader, which
> opened up a whole diversion in your response - all of which I agree with but
> doesn't actually deal with the issue in hand.
> 
> I've no problem with metaphor. Though this is actually a simile isn't it? My
> comment I think is that if you make a simile it has to work. I'm a reader
> with high expectations of  poet. I would expect this simile to cover both
> teeth and jaw. According to your comment you intend that it should. I can't
> quite make it work for me - the mountain range isn't like a jaw. Mountains
> aren't set into a range like teeth into a jaw - and these are against a blue
> sky - which isn't like a jaw or mountain altogether.
> 
> So I understand your intention but your simile doesn't fully realise itself
> in my  mind.
> 
> I don't think there's a taboo against making the conceptual connection in
> your own mind - that's what the creative process is all about. But the
> technical process of writing poetry is about making something happen in the
> readers mind - in some cases getting them to make the same connection. As I
> read I assumed that you were trying to put across a connection between tooth
> and mountain, jaw and what the mountain was in (the range) and presumably
> about the connection between tooth/jaw mountain/range. So my behaviour as a
> reader is to try and make that connection.
> 
> I'm not making sweeping comments about the role of metaphor. I don't think
> there's an affront here. I just think that maybe the connection your brain
> reached for doesn't work for me - and apparently not for a few others as
> well.
> 
> Creativity embraces failure. Art excises it.
> 
> Helen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > > Hello Helen,
> >               Thanks for your comments on the controversy of the teeth. T=
> > he danger of thinking our experiences are universal is one that I=B4m vag=
> > uely familiar with. I don=B4t know if I=B4ve caught quite correctly your =
> > application of it here, but the line I=B4m working along involves a quest=
> > ion over the use of metaphor. Again, I=B4m not sure if I=B4ve got this ri=
> > ght but I think I=B4ve picked up somewhere (maybe comments on this list, =
> > or perhaps reviews of poetry books) that there is a problem with using me=
> > taphor - metaphor is bad/wrong/dangerous - something like that? Is it so?=
> >  I mean, has such a conviction gained popularity? If this IS the case the=
> > n I think the reasoning must go something along the lines of `just becaus=
> > e my experiences and mental processes lead my brain to form a connection =
> > between two objects, I must not assume that others(readers) are going to =
> > make the same connection and that therefore using my own metaphorical con=
> > nections in poetry will be misleading and possibly an affront to the righ=
> > ts of the reader=B4. Again, have I got this right, or am I completely off=
> >  the mark? If this is all so, then I conclude the argument against these =
> > wretched teeth is that they are in my mind, not in the jaw of the blessed=
> >  snow leopard, and that they should have stayed there;-) I had been plann=
> > ing to raise this question about metaphor earlier because I had begun to =
> > wonder whether there was something I didn=B4t know and now it has come up=
> >  by itself, so to speak. Does anyone out there know the answer to this?
> >
> >
> > Puzzled of Finland (a.k.a Mike)
> >
> >
> >
> > > L=E4hett=E4j=E4: Helen Clare <[log in to unmask]>
> > > P=E4iv=E4ys: 2003/11/20 to PM 06:16:16 GMT+02:00
> > > Vastaanottaja: [log in to unmask]
> > > Aihe: Re: Dents du midi - Sue/Mike
> > >=20
> > > any reader/ average reader - I still think despite conversations elsewh=
> > ere
> > > that we have to be careful in assuming our experience is universal!
> > > Personally, if a simile spoke of both teeth in a jaw  I'd look for it t=
> > o
> > > give me an image of the teeth, the jaw and the teeth in the jaw.
> > > Helen
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > - Original Message -----
> > > From: Sue Scalf <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 11:48 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Dents du midi - Sue
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > > Average reader was not a good word choice, Mike.  Any reader might ha=
> > ve
> > > been
> > > > a better one.
> > >=20
>