I agree, Helen, to the extent that poems about disasters and tragedies in
the news nearly always fail in that the writer has not managed to present a
dignified stance, because there arent many dignified stances to be found
surrounding them. But if a writer is in the habit of using poetry to sort
out his emotions and responses to life, it is likely that they will
sometimes have strong feelings about these kinds of subjects (which it may
certainly be argued are not entirely their business) and are justified in
using their skills in language (and thought) to confront them. You could
perhaps call it the Princess Diana syndrome.

It is another question whether it very often produces a good lasting poem,
or indeed if there is some reason it could never do that.

So where are the boundaries between colleagues for discussing our imperfect
work, but work that may help to heal? I think poetry about misery is more
likely to be the kind of writing that aims to heal rather than the kind of
writing that aims to be high art. It could be just as "wrong" to use misery
as a subject without an artist's response - for no response is a response.

The other thing, and this makes it more complex, is that the concept of
suffering is central to many interpretations of Christian faith. This is
most definitely the main reason I am not a Christian. I think suffering is
bad and I resent having been taught to revere it in some way by my
upbringing in the Christian church.

Perhaps someone should tell me to stop talking about Christianity on this
list as it is likely to lead to tears in its own right.


bw
SallyE




on 16/11/03 7:33 pm, Helen Clare at [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I'd like to add that my objections to this poem have nothing whatsover to do
> with religion. It's a much deeper question about how we base art on human
> misery without exploiting it. Of course we have the right to exploit our own
> misery again and again - and many artists do! But we have to be very careful
> when we use the misery of others. The great photographers (C and I went to a
> Sebastio Selgardo exhibition (check my spelling C!) which illustrated this
> well) set their own egos to one side and let the subject's reality emotions
> and personality shine through. I'm not sure how poets are to do this - but I
> don't feel that using it as a springboard for one's own philosphical musings
> really does it.
> I'm not an atheist as it happens nor one to be dismissive of religion. I do
> think this poem raises some really important issues about how poets write
> about this sort of thing. I would not question anyone's faith on this list.
> But aren't we here to ask questions of poetry.
> Helen
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sally Evans <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 7:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Nearer to Thee
>
>
>> Sue, this is about a horrible murder and an even more horrible court
> ase  -
>> the sort that doesnt get reported internationally but nationally. We all
>> feel bad abut it in UK. Those, like Helen and myself, who do not find
>> comfort in the approach David has used, and Sarah and myself, who have
>> stated in our responses that  we do not share these religious beliefs,
> have
>> as much right to say so as David has to post the poem.
>>
>> I am hurt by your implication that I am "narrow minded about Christian
>> values". This poem is by someone I like whom I know to be a Christian, and
> I
>> gave a probable reason for my difficulties with it. The points I made were
>> fair ones in poetry comment. Sarah was also very courteous indeed.
>>
>> So why do you feel so besieged?
>> bw
>> Sally
>>
>>
>> on 16/11/03 6:16 pm, Sue Scalf at [log in to unmask] wrote:
>>
>>> I am surprised by some of the reactions to this poem, especially that
> anyone
>>> would be uncomfortable with a Christian poem just because this person is
> an
>>> atheist or has no religious faith.  I have read and appreciated many
> poems
>>> that
>>> were atheistic, but I was never made uncomfortable by them even though I
> am a
>>> Christian.  Good poetry is more than dogma in my opinion.  We are moved
> by the
>>> compelling qualities of the poem, the power with which the ideas are set
>>> forth, and open-minded enough to realize there are many views in life
> with
>>> which
>>> we may not agree in poetry, but we judge the poem's value on the power
> of its
>>> presentation and the beauty of the writing.  I should hope that most
> atheists
>>> are not really narrow-minded about Christian values.  Faith is a tenuous
> and
>>> fragile thing for even the most devout Christian, and I believe it was
>>> Tennyson
>>> who said, "There is more faith in honest doubt than in half the world's
>>> creeds."  David, I liked the poem, but I think it needs to be divorced
> from
>>> the
>>> hymn.  It has to stand alone.  Sue