Hi Mike,
I dont know what the others will say, but I think the response of trying to
defend this poem as it stands is mistaken (if brave). De dum de dum is
certainly a rhythm but there is something wrong with the way it is used
here. The poem from beginning to end is somehow flat.

As I suspected, you say there was another figure "hidden" in the poem, but
then it comes over more as a puzzle in verse than a poem. I believe
something has gone wrong in the way you have tried to translate your idea of
a hidden fugure (suggested at or by the place you were visiting) into the
poem. I would be interested in a complete re-write because I am trying to
understand what made you write this at all, as I said before.

As for what the different words and images mean, I think you can analyse a
piece of writing like this but you cannot build up a meaningful piece of
writing by collecting analytical particles and combining them.

That would make poetry a science, which I don't think it is.
bw
SallyE

The Hidden Figure

We came to see the winter palace,
just two among the thousands.
We walked along the north facade,
admired its thrusting columns.
We observed the towers and turrets
and the cupola on the roof,
wandered through the garden
with its fountains spouting spray.

It was only when we entered
that the guide began her story,
how a legend from the distant past
preserved the mystery
of a hidden figure in the palace,
some shape or symbol concealed
in its design which the architect placed
there but which had never been revealed.

We mounted stairs by the dozen,
looked at paintings, gazed in mirrors.
We penetrated to the inner sanctum,
according to our guide, and I´m sure we did.
It was all quite stimulating
but by the time we withdrew
to the cafe for refreshments
I was limp with exhaustion.

A palace is just a place to live
as far as I´m concerned. It´s house
writ big, but still a house
and I wouldn´t fancy paying the heating bill.
I don´t believe in hidden figures,
that legend´s just a con.
At least that´s what I think.
I can´t speak for my companion.

on 13/11/03 9:13 am, Mike Horwood at [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> Many thanks for your useful responses. This is a combined reply since you all
> raised similar points. Those points I´ve summarised as:
> 1. not poetry, lack of rhythm
> 2. what are you trying to say/what is this `poem´ about
> There were other comments which focused on specific words or phrases or whole
> stanzas which I will think over at leisure. I´d like here to pick up these two
> main reactions. Of course, in offering my own view of this odd piece I´m going
> to be trying, at least to some extent, to defend the words and lineation I had
> chosen. I hope that won´t come across too much as if I think the final product
> is good, I´m sure it isn´t. But half the fun of writing `poetry´ is arguing
> about it, so here goes.
> 
> 1. It´s certainly interesting, and eye opening, to see a poem written out as
> prose. The opening of Eliot´s Four Quartets look especially fine in that form.
> I imagine that the prime effect is to highlight rhythm or the lack of it.
> There may be something wrong with my ear (like deafness, for instance ;-) but
> in the opening stanza I hear quite a strong rhythm. It goes something like
> this; dee, dum, dee, dum, dee, dum, dee, dum / dee, dum, dee, dum dee, dum,
> dee / There´s a little irregularity e.g.some lines have an extra syllable and
> the last three words of S1 break that `rhythm´ completely. S2 returns to the
> original `rhythm´ for the first 2 lines after which the  lines run together in
> much longer cadences. Rhythm isn´t only metrical, of course, as Eliot (again)
> also pointed out it concerns sounds, words, imagery and the change from one
> image to the next. Try reading the last three words of S1 with an energetic
> forward thrust of the pelvis for each stress (I´m not sure I should be writing
> this, but never mind) and see what it suggests. Rhythm at the very least, I
> hope.
> 
> 2. The first point I shall make here concerns both content and rhythm, since
> rhythm, as we have seen, includes sequences of images. Here is a selection of
> words and phrases from the piece; thrusting columns, towers and turrets,
> fountains spouting spray, entered, mounted, penetrated, the inner sanctum,
> stimulating, withdrew, limp with exhaustion. Does this combination of words
> suggest any particular subject? Would it have suggested one to Freud, for
> example?
> One thing I was trying to do here was to weave various words and phrases into
> the fabric of the `poem´ so that they might actually function as a kind of
> `hidden figure´ for the reader to identify as they read. The `poem´ then
> enacts its own subject. What is the subject? What is the `winter palace´?
> Clearly not the one in St. Petersburg since that would have capital letters,
> doesn´t have a garden and there are no fountains. My winter palace exists only
> in the text you read, the `hidden figure´ in the palace is the `hidden figure´
> in the text. Pretty cunning, I think you will admit. As a final bonus the
> narrator, who is not me, just a narrator, is accompanied by...who? Someone is
> there, mentioned at the beginning, `we´ and `two´, and at the end `my
> companion´. As readers we know nothing of this shadowy figures opinions about
> the whole experience. (S)he is also a `hidden figure´. The style of the piece
> is intended to imitate as close as my poor powers allow the tone of a speaking
> voice since it is supposed to be a person speaking. It´s not `poetic´ in the
> sense of being high-flown. I don´t think that would be appropriate. And there
> are some jokes - `heating bill´(?)
> I think that to try to use language in this way is one of the elements that
> makes the difference between prose and poetry. Whether it succeeds is quite
> another matter, of course.
> 
> That concludes the case for the defence. Does it make any sense? Even a little
> bit of sense would be reassuring. But please, don´t flatter me, if I´m
> deceiving myself entirely as to the possible reading of this piece then let me
> have it between the eyes, as a way of opening them, I mean ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best wishes,   Mike