Hi Sally,
Sorry I haven't replied before now. My computer wouldn't even let me read
your post, never mind post anything of my own! But it's all fixed now - I
hope!
So (following on from what you write below...), sorry, perhaps I should have
said i did recognise that it was also about words/language/poetry as well as
a walk in the woods!!
And being specific about the place - as opposed to a "shadowed world" - it
might just be my conditioning that thinks "If a specific place is mentioned
I then can imagine other specific places it can apply to from my experience,
and find my feelings too..." so the particular points to the universal.
I may have cheated aplenty to make a specific place fit into a poem - but
it's there. I guess I think Robert Frost had a particular wood in mind on a
particular snowy evening - I can't imagine it being any old wood!
So, thinking how to be specific (and not mention Loch Lomond - or name a
wood!) could words like "this (wood)" and "these" replace "the" here and
there. I know it might mess the rules up - but...
You also mention that it isn't too fashionable to write about trees these
days... Perhaps in suggesting a title or some way of offering a specific
sense of place I'm responding to the current fashion (you write: "it iosn't
very fashionable these days to write about trees..."), trying to make the
poem fit into the contemporary jigsaw of poems.
Bob
>From: Sally Evans <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: New; Among the dark trees -Bob
>Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 01:59:03 +0000
>
>Bob,
>Thank you very much for the trouble you have taken and the interest shown
>in
>this. I know it 's a difficult form and I thought maybe my 'dark trees' and
>"shadowed woods" were too alike; and I take your point about some of the
>words, 'measures' perhaps. I didnt think of those road snow warnings, but I
>meant a radio or weather forecast snow warning. What you havent mentioned,
>is what I felt strongly that the poem was about: not being beside Loch
>Lomond, but wandering through a shadowed world that is only made pleasant
>by
>one or two bright and beautiful and inspiring things. And that these few
>wonderful things give pattern to the rest. It's also about poetry, about
>words coming to ones rescue and making the things worth while. I know that
>is what is behind the poem, though it may not come across. I wrote this
>after a time of not being able to write much, and I have noticed that ones
>best work sometimes comes after such a gap. For all its faults it is
>probably about as good as I can do. And of course it isnt very fashionable
>to go on about trees and things these days!
>bw
>SallyE
>
>on 3/11/03 12:23 am, Bob Cooper at [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> > Hi Sally,
> > No, I don't think this has been written away! It's a neat accomplishment
>in
> > what I think is the toughest of forms! It’s a form that often appears
>(scuse
> > th pun!) wooden and, even with the most accomplished examples, I often
>feel
> > as if one of the stanzas (usually the 4th or 5th) often feels as if it’s
> > only there to make up the measure. Here, however, I feel as if it all
>flows
> > through and maintains interest well. That could be because you’ve not
>let
> > each line, or sometimes each stanza, be self-contained units but let the
> > poem keep on flowing.
> >
> > I also like the way you’ve used to close sounding end-line sounds – and
> > “ime” sound and an “en” sound. For me that helps create a smoothness,
>helps
> > it flow. And only having one full stop at the end of one of the lines is
> > helpful too! (It’s sometimes so tiresome to have full stops at the end
>of
> > EVERY stanza, commas at the end of every line…)
> >
> > I like the way you’ve made it a story. Quite often I sense poems written
>to
> > this formula give an atmosphere of generality, profundity, universality,
> > (and the repetitions feel lifeless) but I like the way you keep me (as
>the
> > reader) alongside yourself (the person walking thro the woods) as you
>offer
> > insights about words and where you are.
> >
> > Why is it, with poems following this tight template, I always seem to
> > stumble in the penultimate verse? I don’t know the answer! I just know I
> > read something that feels somehow uncomfortable. I guess I’m being
>critical
> > of the form more than this poem, it’s as if my mind can’t go with the
>flow
> > anymore – and you’ve worked well with run-on lines to keep me reading
> > through – but a moment arrives – in other poems more than this one! -
>when I
> > feel “I’ve heard these phrases enough, they’ve lost their magic!” Here
>it’s
> > when I read: “Patterns are given to shadowed woods I wander through.” in
> > this stanza that I start to feel weary of hearing the same thing said
>once
> > more! Perhaps I should avoid reading them!
> >
> > I’m also thinking of the phrase, “Words drop like a snow warning” –
>because
> > I visualize a big Scottish road sign that says “Warning. Snow” and
>advises
> > me not to keep on driving up to Fort William, or Inverness, or wherever.
>I
> > don’t think that that big read-me-&-worry sign is what you mean me to
>see,
> > tho!
> >
> > I was also wondering about the title phrase “among the dark trees” – not
> > that there’s anything wrong with it! – and wondering if more can be
>said…
> > Perhaps use the title to give a more precise location: Beside Loch
>Lomond in
> > October, or something like that?
> >
> > I’m also thinking that woods are silentish places – but they have their
>own
> > noises! If you dropped an adjective here or there you might be able to
> > include a sound or two? If I were cynical I could sort of feel some of
>the
> > adjectives are there to make the lines long enough. (The middle line of
> > stanza 2 might not need “rich” - 2 adjectives follow each other here! -
>or
> > the squirrel’s doing the same thing as the jay! (It might, in fact, be
> > better to mention “jay AND squirrel” if you keep both – sort of puts
>them
> > more in front of our eyes, makes them more than just being musings of
>the
> > narrator). And, later on, “gilt-speared” seems to draw emphasis and
> > attention to itself! But I’m being mega-tough mentioning these things!
>And
> > you've got the strictures of the form to deal with as well!)
> >
> > The word “measures” is used in a way I haven’t come across before. I
>know
> > what you mean but is it the right word? (It might be, but I’ve two left
> > feet, I’m no dancer!). And “herded” has one connotation but “chime” has
> > another! (I guess I end up thinking of cow-bells, which - and I haven’t
> > heard many - have more of a dull clang than a chime!). Herded seems a
>more
> > easily replaceable word…
> >
> > It’s such a tough form, tho. Isn’t it just!
> >
> > Bob
> > (Who wonders why he thought of Loch Lomond in October…)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: Sally Evans <[log in to unmask]>
> >> Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: New; Among the dark trees
> >> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:26:29 +0000
> >>
> >> this one has possibly written itself away - they do sometimes. Are
>there
> >> too
> >> few specifics? & what else is wrong?
> >> bw
> >> Sally
> >>
> >> Among the dark trees
> >>
> >> Among the dark trees these in autumn prime
> >> rise under empty skies. Let colour leaven
> >> the shadowed woods I wander through in time.
> >>
> >> Red oak and bright sweet chestnut spread sublime
> >> rich canopies for jay or squirrel, woven
> >> among the dark trees, these. In autumn prime
> >>
> >> acorns and prickly chestnuts challenge rhyme,
> >> pale cases and their gilt-speared leaves enliven
> >> the shadowed woods I wander through. In time
> >>
> >> late summer chills the landscape. As I climb
> >> worsdrop like a snow-warning, white as heaven
> >> among the dark trees. These in autumn prime
> >>
> >> dance measures with the seasons, pulse and mime
> >> in meaning-laden whirls. Patterns are given
> >> to shadowed woods I wander thorugh. In time,
> >>
> >> herded in readiness, they sound their chime -
> >> millions of words, heaped in this inland haven
> >> among the dark trees. These, in autmn, prime
> >> the shadowed woods. I wander through, in time.
> >
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