Bob,
Thank you very much for the trouble you have taken and the interest shown in
this. I know it 's a difficult form and I thought maybe my 'dark trees' and
"shadowed woods" were too alike; and I take your point about some of the
words, 'measures' perhaps. I didnt think of those road snow warnings, but I
meant a radio or weather forecast snow warning. What you havent mentioned,
is what I felt strongly that the poem was about: not being beside Loch
Lomond, but wandering through a shadowed world that is only made pleasant by
one or two bright and beautiful and inspiring things. And that these few
wonderful things give pattern to the rest. It's also about poetry, about
words coming to ones rescue and making the things worth while. I know that
is what is behind the poem, though it may not come across. I wrote this
after a time of not being able to write much, and I have noticed that ones
best work sometimes comes after such a gap. For all its faults it is
probably about as good as I can do. And of course it isnt very fashionable
to go on about trees and things these days!
bw
SallyE

on 3/11/03 12:23 am, Bob Cooper at [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Hi Sally,
> No, I don't think this has been written away! It's a neat accomplishment in
> what I think is the toughest of forms! It’s a form that often appears (scuse
> th pun!) wooden and, even with the most accomplished examples, I often feel
> as if one of the stanzas (usually the 4th or 5th) often feels as if it’s
> only there to make up the measure. Here, however, I feel as if it all flows
> through and maintains interest well. That could be because you’ve not let
> each line, or sometimes each stanza, be self-contained units but let the
> poem keep on flowing.
> 
> I also like the way you’ve used to close sounding end-line sounds – and
> “ime” sound and an “en” sound. For me that helps create a smoothness, helps
> it flow. And only having one full stop at the end of one of the lines is
> helpful too! (It’s sometimes so tiresome to have full stops at the end of
> EVERY stanza, commas at the end of every line…)
> 
> I like the way you’ve made it a story. Quite often I sense poems written to
> this formula give an atmosphere of generality, profundity, universality,
> (and the repetitions feel lifeless) but I like the way you keep me (as the
> reader) alongside yourself (the person walking thro the woods) as you offer
> insights about words and where you are.
> 
> Why is it, with poems following this tight template, I always seem to
> stumble in the penultimate verse? I don’t know the answer! I just know I
> read something that feels somehow uncomfortable. I guess I’m being critical
> of the form more than this poem, it’s as if my mind can’t go with the flow
> anymore – and you’ve worked well with run-on lines to keep me reading
> through – but a moment arrives – in other poems more than this one! - when I
> feel “I’ve heard these phrases enough, they’ve lost their magic!” Here it’s
> when I read: “Patterns are given to shadowed woods I wander through.” in
> this stanza that I start to feel weary of hearing the same thing said once
> more! Perhaps I should avoid reading them!
> 
> I’m also thinking of the phrase, “Words drop like a snow warning” – because
> I visualize a big Scottish road sign that says “Warning. Snow” and advises
> me not to keep on driving up to Fort William, or Inverness, or wherever. I
> don’t think that that big read-me-&-worry sign is what you mean me to see,
> tho!
> 
> I was also wondering about the title phrase “among the dark trees” – not
> that there’s anything wrong with it! – and wondering if more can be said…
> Perhaps use the title to give a more precise location: Beside Loch Lomond in
> October, or something like that?
> 
> I’m also thinking that woods are silentish places – but they have their own
> noises! If you dropped an adjective here or there you might be able to
> include a sound or two? If I were cynical I could sort of feel some of the
> adjectives are there to make the lines long enough. (The middle line of
> stanza 2 might not need “rich” - 2 adjectives follow each other here! - or
> the squirrel’s doing the same thing as the jay! (It might, in fact, be
> better to mention “jay AND squirrel” if you keep both – sort of puts them
> more in front of our eyes, makes them more than just being musings of the
> narrator). And, later on, “gilt-speared” seems to draw emphasis and
> attention to itself! But I’m being mega-tough mentioning these things! And
> you've got the strictures of the form to deal with as well!)
> 
> The word “measures” is used in a way I haven’t come across before. I know
> what you mean but is it the right word? (It might be, but I’ve two left
> feet, I’m no dancer!). And “herded” has one connotation but “chime” has
> another! (I guess I end up thinking  of cow-bells, which - and I haven’t
> heard many - have more of a dull clang than a chime!). Herded seems a more
> easily replaceable word…
> 
> It’s such a tough form, tho. Isn’t it just!
> 
> Bob
> (Who wonders why he thought of Loch Lomond in October…)
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: Sally Evans <[log in to unmask]>
>> Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: New; Among the dark trees
>> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:26:29 +0000
>> 
>> this one has possibly written itself away - they do sometimes. Are there
>> too
>> few specifics? & what else is wrong?
>> bw
>> Sally
>> 
>> Among the dark trees
>> 
>> Among the dark trees these in autumn prime
>> rise under empty skies. Let colour leaven
>> the shadowed woods I wander through in time.
>> 
>> Red oak and bright sweet chestnut spread sublime
>> rich canopies for jay or squirrel, woven
>> among the dark trees, these. In autumn prime
>> 
>> acorns  and prickly chestnuts challenge rhyme,
>> pale cases and their gilt-speared leaves enliven
>> the shadowed woods I wander through. In time
>> 
>> late summer chills the landscape. As I climb
>> worsdrop like a snow-warning, white as heaven
>> among the dark trees. These in autumn prime
>> 
>> dance measures with the seasons, pulse and mime
>> in meaning-laden whirls. Patterns are given
>> to shadowed woods I wander thorugh. In time,
>> 
>> herded in readiness, they sound their chime -
>> millions of words, heaped in this inland haven
>> among the dark trees. These, in autmn, prime
>> the shadowed woods. I wander through, in time.
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Sign-up for a FREE BT Broadband connection today!
> http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband