Hi Mike,
I've been busy deleting posts and came across your comments again!
When you write:
"I think the point you raise about how the reader actually reads a word or
phrase, what tone they give it in their mind, is it ironic, serious,
humorous etc is enormously important. And a bit of a problem."
Yeh... I can remember sinking a few beers with a few poets over the years
who've moaned on about how reviewers, readers, audiences at readings,
haven't got what the writer thought they'd given!
And how often it's been said, "Don't they understand IRONY?" to which I
guess the only answer is to say, "Are you being ironic in saying that? and
offer to buy the next round...
I guess a poem's a gift we give to others, it's not ours anymore...
Bob
>From: Mike Horwood <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: New sub: Musical chairs - Bob
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:02:58 +0200
>
> > Hi Bob,
> Thanks for your further thoughts on this piece. I guess putting
>it away for a whie is a good idea. I think the point you raise about how
>the reader actually reads a word or phrase, what tone they give it in their
>mind, is it ironic, serious, humorous etc is enormously important. And a
>bit of a problem. I rather fancy that a whole host of issues influence this
>aspect for each reader reading each poem. Some of those factors are
>reasonably transparent such as, for example, the genre of the poem, the
>poet´s earlier productions, if (s)he is well known, but other factors are
>more hidden. For an unknown writer it sometimes seems to me that the
>chances of a reader identifying the writer´s intended tone bears close
>comparison with the lottery, but with this difference - the rewards are not
>so large. Your suggestion about using italics is one that I´m going to try
>out, though.
> Regarding Wind and my comment to Grasshopper - `does it really
>matter´. I think you may have misunderstood my idea here on account of my
>having expressed it clumsily. I didn´t mean that punctuation doesn´t
>matter. I meant that the length and strength of the pause - which was my
>explanation for using the exclamation mark rather than a comma - may not
>really matter much. I agree with you that punctuation is of great
>importance in poetry although not everyone chooses to use it and in some
>cases its absence can work successfully.
>
>
>
>Best wishes, mIke
>
>
>
> > From: Bob Cooper <[log in to unmask]>
> > Date: 2003/10/24 Fri PM 03:16:36 EEST
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: New sub: Musical chairs - Bob
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> > I think it would be a shame to ditch the poem! I find it appealing,
> > promising. It could, however, be one of those poems that needs a long
>sleep
> > - while you get on with writing other things - before it and you can
>work
> > together again... I don't know how long a poem takes to get itself
>right.
> > Responding further to what you're saying about the 2 phrases I queried:
> > "desirable elements" and "little birds."
> > I see what you're doing now with "desirable elements" - and it's witty
>now I
> > know where it's come from! But when I read it initially I, for one,
>couldn't
> > see it working like you've explained it in the poem. I don't know if
>it's
> > just me being insensitive to what I'm reading or the words in the poem
>not
> > being readable with the accent/raised-eyebrow tone you wish. Maybe
>there's
> > ways (like italics?) to stress the words more and give more chance of
>seeing
> > how they should be understood...
> > The second phrase, little birds, is, to me, so removed from the whole
>phrase
> > "a little bird (singular) told me" that I may have got what you were
> > alluding to if I'd read "A little bird... etc"
> > I sense poetry can play lots of half submerged games within a poem - and
> > this is a playful poem - so, if you want to include such games it might
>just
> > be that I'm not bright enough, or (if no-one else gets them either) they
> > don't work well enough.
> > And then something else...
> > You made a comment in your reply to grasshopper about punctuation - with
>the
> > comment, "does it matter all that much?" (I may be paraphrasing a tad
>here).
> > I'm wanting to but in and say Yes it matters! In poems there's changes
>in
> > what's used that follow trends, or fashions, but they guide the reader
>in
> > how the piece is read, they can also introduce subtleties.
> > I rage against my computer because MS Word sometimes decides (wrongly)
>to
> > change what I'm indending (even tho I've previously told it not to do
>such
> > things!). Bill Gates, it seems, can't read poems, can't understand how
> > people write poems!
> > (Oh, and now I need reading glasses I really hate stuff printed out in
> > Arial! I sometimes can't see what's a comma and what's a full stop -
>they're
> > so small and so similar - but now I'm moaning, moaning, and wandering
>off
> > the subject!!! LOL!)
> > Best wishes,
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > >From: Mike Horwood <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: Re: New sub: Musical chairs - Bob
> > >Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:31:29 +0300
> > >
> > > > Hello Bob,
> > > Thanks for your thoughts on this one. I can offer an
> > >explanation of `desirable elements´, I took the cliché `undesirable
> > >elements´ which is used to suggest criminal groups and revitalsied it
>by
> > >changing it slightly thus producing something which is both familiar
>and
> > >new (this at least is what I would like to think, and in an ideal world
>it
> > >would be true....but where is that ideal world?) To me, then,
>`desirable
> > >elements´ suggests the opposite of criminal characters or, someone
>nice,
> > >like a lover for instance, for whom desire is a doubly appropriate term
>(I
> > >hope). An even message in code is a bloomer on my part! You quite
>right,
> > >it´s impossible. I hope you didn´t waste too much time trying to find
>what
> > >such a message could sound like. I´ve changed that now to `as fluent as
>a
> > >message in code´. The `little birds´ does sound twee, maybe it should
>go. I
> > >used it because of another cliché that was up for the good old famous
> > >revitalisation process, namely `a little bird told me´. This poem is
>all
> > >about rumours and people´s secrets getting out into the open (well, it
>is
> > >to me....except that´s not all it´s about) but anyway I thought I could
> > >hint at the little bird phrase, but it does sound odd, doesn´t it?
>Maybe
> > >this one needs a radical rework, or maybe I´ll just ditch it. Thanks
>for
> > >your comments, Bob.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Best wishes, mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: Bob Cooper <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Date: 2003/10/17 Fri PM 07:15:58 EEST
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: Re: New sub: Musical chairs
> > > >
> > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > I like this! Its approach, its subject matter, its style! The first
>two
> > > > lines make me want to continue!
> > > > But I keep wondering just what the "desirable elements" are? And
>then
> > >I'm
> > > > puzling over the statement "a rhythm as even/ as a message in code."
> > >because
> > > > I've spent hours wondering (off and on) just how even coded messages
> > >are!
> > > > Bob
> > > > (who also thinks the word "little" might be rather twee...)
> > > > (and, if you take Christina's advice about changing the stance of
>the
> > > > narrator, thinks the result ould also be canny!)
> > > >
> > > > >From: Mike Horwood <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > >Subject: New sub: Musical chairs
> > > > >Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:03:36 +0300
> > > > >
> > > > >Musical Chairs
> > > > >
> > > > >At first he had not realised
> > > > >just how musical his chairs were.
> > > > >They had various obscure talents
> > > > >and were in secret communication
> > > > >with desirable elements
> > > > >in his environment.
> > > > >
> > > > >One morning in July, the air
> > > > >fairly pulsed with excitement
> > > > >as he warmed himself, and the chairs
> > > > >beat time with a rhythm as even
> > > > >as a message in code.
> > > > >
> > > > >Little birds sang the accompaniment,
> > > > >the tree swayed, the mat was astonished
> > > > >and the walls felt betrayed.
> > > > >
> > > > >For him it was all a game.
> > > > >Ignorance, in the midst of so much
> > > > >knowledge, was the price he paid.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Mike
> > > >
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