Hello Marcus,
             Many thanks for this detailed analysis of the issue in question. I find myself in full agreement with much of what you say and of course when we pursue this issue deeper we are really talking about the practice of writing poetry in general rather than specifically about clichés and of course, it´s not easy to find language that is fresh, original, absolutely expressive what we want to say, and has the right number of syllables, the right sounds and the right rhythm. It has been suggested in this discussion that clichés can be made to work in new ways and if I have understood you right, that is perhaps what you are saying at this point:-

Mike
 Should we be suspicious of combining the
> noun `sun´ and the verb `rise´? It´s been used so many times, after
> all.<<

Marcus
Yes, exactly -- you should be wary of it. That's not to say you can't
say "sunrise" or say "the sun rose over the horizon" or "the rising
sun illuminated her face" and the like; but you must be suspicious of
whether that particular locution actually gets you further along in
what you're trying to say or mean without your readers reacting by
turning the page because they've read all that before.


The problem remains, not only of identifying whether the familiar/hackneyed combination of words actually functions as the writer wishes (which is just to ask whether the writer is a good poet or not), but also of identifying how the reader will react to a given combination. Since the reception of poetry is so subjective this seems to be a hopeless task. And the danger is always present that the writer´s `original´ use of words may strike the reader as `familiar´. This is a point that Arthur made, I remember. Is there, then, a further danger that the writer might become over-critical if she/he tries to anticipate every charge of using `the familiar word´ and eradicates it? If the writer wants to express the sense of nervous tension familiarly conveyed by the phrase `with a pounding heart´, is it okay to use the phrase in the poem or is it sheer laziness and/or lack of skill on the part of the poet. I felt that at the start of your comments you were suggesting that such language was undesirable in poetry, but in the comment above I wonder if you would accept it in the right context.

Thanks again, Marcus, for your useful advice. If you still feel sufficiently interested to add anything to this, I´ll be very interested to hear your opinion.



Best wishes,   Mike