I hope you don't mind, Arthur, Gerald, if I chip in...
But I've found what you've been talking about, how you've explored what
haiku are very, very useful. As has been mentioned somewhere in the posts
the information sometimes offered via the Web isn't always as good as it may
initially appear to be - but, here, I feel I've discovered things that help
me appreciate what is (or should be) going on in these (wide open) small
poems.
My thanks,
Bob
>From: Gerald England <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: New sub: In pursuit of the elusive haiku( Gerald)
>Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:14:46 +0100
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "arthur seeley" <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 8:12 AM
>Subject: Re: New sub: In pursuit of the elusive haiku( Gerald)
>
>
> >Gerald , let me thank you for your detailed and valued analysis of the
> >piece.
>
>I'm glad it was useful
>I found it useful too to try and separate out two strands
>what makes the work good writing
>and what makes something haiku.
>a lot of the latter is feeling and empathy and it comes only after years of
>practice and can't be found by following "rules" as there are not rigid
>rules as such but guidelines and best practice.
>
>
> >I would like the whole to be read as a whole and not as an exercise in
> >writing haiku per se.
>
>That's why I'd be happier if the title were
>In Pursuit of the Elusive.
>
>then we could more reasonably evaluate the poem purely as a poem
>perhaps pick out -- the true haiku -- as a comment
>and concentrate more on the content than the form.
>
> >The thousand sunsets is the image taken from the trout's re-entry to the
> >river scattering the light from the sunset so where there was one wobbly
> >sunset there are a thousand/many. I didn't really count them * smile*, a
> >poetic 'thousand', shall we say.
>
>I didn't quite get this -- I wonder if "myriad" rather than "thousand"
>would
>be better
>
>
> >The 'smells' dilemma fascinates me as from its place it flickers between
> >being a verb and being a noun. I had thought to strengthen this paradox
>by
> >removing all punctuation so that it can indeed flicker and be both. The
> >comma rather accentuates the noun aspect, don't you think.
>
>from a poetic point of view the ambiguity is fine
>and whilst ambiguity isn't entirely absent from haiku
>here, if this stanza were to be a haiku, then I think you would need to
>come
>down one side or the other -- yes the single comma does accentuate the noun
>aspect.
>
>
> >I was going to present 'wind' as 'winds', removing punctuation, then it
>can
> >be read with a long 'i' sound or a short'i', winds=wanders or winds=
> >pluralized wind, which would give another dimension to the sheep drive.
>
>I cannot see the image of sheep winding through the reeds
>other than as a comic fantasy -- sheep tend to stick to hard ground!
>
> >I am truly grateful for your input as I have learned much, Gerald. Thanks
> >for your time. Regards Arthur.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gerald England" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 4:38 PM
>Subject: Re: New sub: In pursuit of the elusive haiku
>
>
>The dilemma faced by one in critiquing these is twofold
>
>a) I can comment on them as examples of short poems
>
>b) I can comment on whether or not they are examples of "haiku"
>
>the two are separate judgements
>so I'll try and attempt to do both
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "arthur seeley" <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:39 AM
>Subject: New sub: In pursuit of the elusive haiku
>
>
>In pursuit of the elusive haiku.
>
>
>
>Brown hands on warm stone.
>River low through a dry summer,
>smells of sweet rot.
>
> a) an interesting image -- one that repays pondering as it can be
>interpreted in different ways
>
>b) a bit too wordy
>slight confusion over whether "smell" belongs to river
>i.e. the river smells -- in whcih case there should perhaps be a comma
>after
>river
>or to "sweet rot"
>i.e. odour of rotting whatever
>in which case you've got three images and haiku should really one have two.
>
>Swift flits of a collie,
>sheep billow down the fell;
>wind through bent reeds.
>
>a) swift flits is a bit tongue-twist-ish but I think I rather like it
>
>b) three distinct images -- not a haiku
>"sheep billow" is a metaphor which works well as a poetic device
>but is not appropriate in haiku
>
>Berries redden;
>a dead leaf spins
>on the river’s skin.
>
> a) neat
>
>b) two contrasting but related images -- a true haiku
>
>All things turn.
>
>
>
>Time erodes banks,
>branch-snagged debris decay;
>ducks slap through mud.
>
>a) isn't "debris" a mass noun? -- hence it should be "decays"
>love the image of ducks slapping
>
>b) Time erodes banks is a "statement" that "tells" rather than "shows"
>if you changed it to
>"eroded banks"
>then this would be a true haiku
>you don't need to introduce the non-concrete concept "Time"
>
>Summer melts into autumn.
>A trout arcs and plummets;
>a thousand sunsets dance.
>
> a)
>the opening line is a "truism"
>nice image of the trout
>but what exactly do you mean by "a thousand sunsets"?
>perhaps your implication is that these things perpetuate
>but my immediate reaction is "so what?"
>
>b) much too abstract for haiku
>
>
>haze on the fell,
>dew on the lawns of morning,
>ice on stones.
>
> a) so-so
>as part of a sequence [and maybe the whole *is* a sequence -- and I'm doing
>it a disservice not treating it as such] this might be OK
>but as a free-standing piece it doesn't work for me.
>
>b) three separate images -- not a haiku
>
>HTH [hope this helps]
>
>yours
>Gerald
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