OK - die ofthirst? This is turning into a joint effort, or anyway a good
example of back-seat driving (through a river)
I'm very into rivers.
bw
SallyE
on 12/5/03 11:02 am, Mike Horwood at [log in to unmask] wrote:
> Hello Sally,
> Thanks for your further observations. There seems to be a growing body of
> opinion in favour of maintaining a link with the stream/water image all the
> way through to the end. The difficulty, as I see it, with that is the line
> `like a stream turned from its course / and observed him, puzzled, dowsing´.
> In these lines the stream has turned out of the poem so to speak and one of my
> characters is searching for water. Bringing the water/stream back would
> suggest a return of the desire between them that is against the spirit of the
> ending. It´s a puzzler.
>
>
>
> Best wishes, Mike
>
>
>
>
> --- Alkuperäinen viesti ---
> Dried up seems the sort of idea I was looking for - there have to be ways of
> expressing the ending or stopping while staying with the river. or, since
> rivers don't normally dry up, perhaps you should walk away from the river on
> different paths. I agree with Bob that you want to keep the unity of the
> watery metaphor as that is the whole basis of the main part of the poem.
> Unless you can make the poem itself very obviously stop in midstream - and
> there's always drowning. Though drowning might suggests the reverse outcome.
> Rescue from drowning? Could darkness call a halt? it's becoming an
> intriguing crit discussion
> bw
> SallyE
>
> on 12/5/03 8:15 am, Mike Horwood at [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
>> Hello Bob,
>> Thanks for your comments and observations on this one. I´m interested in your
>> first suggestion of starting with the image, the stream, rather than desire.
>> I
>> hadn´t rationalised it during composition but I might say now/later that
>> desire (or a desire) is the focal point of the poem and starting with it adds
>> impact and focus. Does that make sense? If I were to try starting with the
>> stream, how might it go? Like this:
>> In places the stream rippled and splashed,
>> refracting sunlight,
>> in places it ran smooth and deep....
>> Could the poem in fact continue from that point virtually unchanged? And the
>> reader makes the connection at some point between the stream and desire?
>> Your point about the poet intervening is one I often hear and it´s true that
>> I
>> do it. Partly I think this is a question of individual style and taste but I
>> dislike poetry where such comment is intrusive and criticise it myself in
>> others. My problem is sometimes identifying what exactly is intervening and
>> what is describing. For instance if the line you mentioned was changed thus:
>> She did not fight him or cry, but hid her pain
>> does that overcome the problem. My feeling is usually that saying the same
>> thing in a way that is only marginally different doesn´t matter so much, but
>> I
>> may well be wrong about that. What do you think?
>> Your point about the change towards the end has also drawn comments from
>> others, although contradictory ones. I was interested that you used the word
>> `withdrawn´ to describe the last twa stanzas because that is exactly what the
>> partners in the poem have done. I can´t myself see any way to extend the
>> stream metaphor into the end precisely because their desire has ....not dried
>> up exactly, but been redirected. I also felt that using the indefinite
>> article
>> in the final stanza - a desire - played a significant role. But maybe it only
>> means something to me.
>> Anyway, these are a few further ideas. If you feel like adding any comments
>> to
>> these I´d be very interested to hear what you think.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes, Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- Alkuperäinen viesti ---
>> Hi Mike,
>> I’m intrigued by this poem – how you’re working the metaphor, the stream,
>> with the feeling, desire. But I feel it’s sort of too weak in how it’s
>> working. For instance could you get the reader closer to the stream? Instead
>> of starting with a statement “Their desire flowed like…” hit us with the
>> image: the stream! Then, when we can see that, it might be possible to
>> reveal the poem’s “other” agenda, their desire.
>> There’s also bits where the poet intervenes in the action instead of
>> describing what’s going on.
>> “There was no battle, no tears, yet she was hurt.” is a case in point. And
>> the last 2 stanzas are from the same withdrawn point of view – where there’s
>> no desire in them! (Maybe because the stream doesn’t figure in the poem
>> anymore!).
>> But it’s got me thinking… things like what other links can I make between
>> desire and water that can keep the poem flowing. (I’m thinking of Narcissus,
>> of how he fell in love with – ie how he desired – his own image in the water
>> and wondering if that could be a useful extension to how the poem is
>> positioning the guy by the stream… but there’s probably lots of other
>> stories, images, allusions, that could be shadowed too!). In our chatter
>> here the image has been called a cliché… and it could be seen as that –
>> unless you possess it a bit more and work it. Cos I think a cliché is a
>> world-weary, almost worn out, kind of truth – and a bit more freshness can
>> still be found…
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: Mike Horwood <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: new sub: Desire
>>> Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:04:55 +0300
>>>
>>> Desire
>>>
>>> Their desire flowed like a stream;
>>> here the surface rippled and splashed,
>>> refracting sunlight,
>>> there it ran smooth and deep.
>>> In places it ran underground
>>> as an underground spring might feed a well
>>> or chill the air with a dampness like fear.
>>>
>>> He stood on the bankside,
>>> dipped bare feet in the flow
>>> but slaked his thirst from furtive buckets.
>>> There was no battle, no tears, yet she was hurt.
>>> She spoke Janus words, turning in the doorway
>>> like a stream turned from its course,
>>> and observed him, puzzled, dowsing.
>>>
>>> He knew something was lacking.
>>> Later he called it confidence,
>>> finally a form of trust.
>>>
>>> There had been a desire, fear, a lack;
>>> the scrape of furniture, click of a lock,
>>> a key alone on the table.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>
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