Hi Mike, Arthur, All...
I think Sue, in her message to Shah, said what the "Show not tell" adage is 
all about when she wrote about an actor "showing" us he had toothache - 
possibly with grimaces and holding the side of his face, or telling us, 
"I've got toothache!" For me that's the guide I'd suggest ought to be 
applied to each phrase, the guide to each line - - for there are occasions 
when telling might be what the poem needs (but probably not very often - and 
with a recognition of what you're doing and why you're doing it!). And 
that's what you're getting at isn't it, Mike? No fixed rule - just a way of 
looking at what we've done, helping us consider the subtleties of our craft.
Another perspective on what you're saying about what has become of saying, 
wondering, asking, proposing, rowing? might be to say "Yeh, these ARE the 
things poems often need! The skill is in how we get these things into the 
poem..."
I think a more interesting phrase Famous Seamus has in his poem is "don't 
have veins bulging in your biro" which is possibly to do with over-writing 
(or maybe is about being too cryptic?) and is a fine comment to apply to his 
own work - which is deceptively simple most of the time (- as well as 
applying it too one's own!)
It also interests me that he gives the phrases to somebody else... but here 
I might be talking more about how he saw his own role and function as a poet 
all those years ago.
Bob





>From: Mike Horwood <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Unokugged ( Christina, Arthur et al
>Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:47:13 +0300
>
>Hello All,
>           I can´t let a mention of `show, don´t tell...´ go past without 
>sticking my oar in (I´ve always liked rowing, as you know). I´d like to 
>agree with a point that Arthur makes here, that the bare statement may be 
>called more telling than the version with extra information. What this 
>argument really hinges on is how we define `showing´ and `telling´. If a 
>poem contains the words, `The day cools towards evening....drink the warmth 
>from my hands´ is it showing me a cool evening or telling me the evening is 
>cool? And in this famous adage, what has become of saying, wondering, 
>asking, proposing, rowing? Two things are clear, however, if we are to be 
>serious about `showing, not teling...´ we should stop writing and take up 
>painting ( or rowing). And secondly, poems should be black, not white. 
>That´s clear and not negotiable.
>
>
>
>Best wishes,   Mike
>
>
>
>
>--- Alkuperäinen viesti ---
>Ah, but they are not in context. They stand alone.They are not the best
>examples I know that. You are arguing about the sentences themselves and 
>not
>reflecting on the quotation. If the quotation does not mean what I think it
>means what do you think it means. Perhaps it means what Bob suggests that 
>we
>show not tell, but to say ' the doors opened'  is more telling than showing
>surely. You may not agree but I think it is bare and nothing more than a
>statement.Arthur
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Christina Fletcher
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 9:38 AM
>Subject: Unokugged (Arthur)
>
>
>
>Morning Arthur,
>Just here for a tick to set the cat among the pigeons;-)
>
>
>"For instance, and a ?for instance? is often more convincing than yards of
>wordage,
>I can say:
>
>The automatic door opened.
>
>That is a simple enough statement, truthful and terse, it describes an
>action but it is I suggest flat and contributes little of poetic value."
>
>****  Mmm.  Everything has to be seen in context.  If the poem's intended 
>to
>convey truth in a flat way 'the automatic door opened' might be the only
>appropriate way of saying it.  Flatness has as much 'poetic value' as
>anything else.
>
>"The automatic door hissed open.
>The automatic door of the bordello whispered open with a welcoming sigh..
>The automatic door of the hospital opened with a malicious hiss.
>The automatic doors of the hotel opened with an obsequious hiss
>
>All describe the same or similar event but set an atmosphere that is part 
>of
>the place and part of the writer?s response to an event in the place. They
>are a revelation of something other than the opening of a door."
>
>***  I don't agree that any of these give the reader more than the first
>example for the reason given above.  They could, but it depends entirely on
>what the writer's aiming to do with words.  Nothing is something.  Less can
>be more.
>
>bw
>christina
>
>
>


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