Thanks for your deep and ssensitive thoughts, Bob. Yes, plausibility is 
stretched in my poem (and my interpretation of it). I think that poetry can 
enter such realms (One thinks of Nonsense verse, and Metaphysical poets) - 
never thought I'd include these in the same parenthesis! - but at the end of 
the day the reader has to be drawn to suspend disbelief, perhaps by adhering 
the poem to a style or school of poetry, and that I have not done. I am 
delighted that you have come on an imaginative journey with me, but I 
apologise for requiring the reader to jump into misted corners of conjecture 
and supposition without my laying the appropriate groundwork. Still, it has 
led to mighty interesting areas and I'll put my thinking cap on as to where 
it might lead in terms of my poesy. Philip




>From: Bob Cooper <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: new submission: Before the Storm(Bob)
>Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 12:10:35 +0000
>
>Hi Philip, (and all else who're reading!)
>(& I've included all that's gone on before cos this discusiion belongs to a 
>poem that first appeared weeks ago... before Xmas!)
>So, (grin), I'll start again...
>Hi Philip,
>I guess, in what I’ve suggested, I must be thinking of down to earth poems! 
>(And you’re getting into the flights of heaven! And, hey, I’m intrigued by 
>the notion that I may be awarded all the GCEs I never got on earth when/if 
>I get to heaven! )
>Perhaps the only time I’ve managed a “I’m back in history poem” I’d like to 
>own up to was one in my last book, where I met Wordsworth’s ghost (who 
>ignored me!). In the poem, though, I met him in the present day (Day? Well, 
>it’s always night when ghosts appear!).
>But I do think it’s possible to write, “as if I am someone else” (maybe I 
>do that most of the time) and there’s no reason why my some one else need 
>not be living elsewhere and in a time that’s long gone… I guess that’s 
>where a poet’s license isn’t the same as a historian’s licence. We’re more 
>in the fiction game than into recording fact. But I have an aversion to 
>language that’s used like an amatuer acts (ill fitting clothes, too many 
>flourishes, shouting when they should whisper, being over-dramatic when 
>they needn’t be, and often not seeing the point of what’s going on - and 
>the need to be dramatic at all!).
>Oh, I’ve just remembered, there’s also a sequence of poems set in medieval 
>France in the book as well! Thinking back to those poems I think I’d just 
>needed the confidence that comes with feeling I knew enough to start (and 
>the relief when I’d finished that I’d said something that I felt hadn’t 
>been said like that before). I wrote about actual people who’d lived and 
>died – but I wrote first (and imagined the scenes as I went along) and then 
>changed bits to fit in with the known facts afterwards. I also feel I 
>became aware of a contemporary issue and I created a concluding incident 
>that helped me include feelings that I felt belonged as much to the present 
>day as to what I imagine occurred in the 14th Century.
>So I’m able to find links between a past time and the present time but I’ve 
>never stretched myself into the timelessness of heaven… (H’m, I’ll let this 
>soak in for a while – see if something turns up…).
>So, I guess I may always have to see the relevance of something that 
>happened in history to other things that are going on in my mind. Past 
>events, for me, must have modern meanings. But I also don’t dream history 
>and that probably doesn’t help.
>Your Michael Caine comment is also a joy to read! That a poem (and all art) 
>can select and highlight and so subvert commonly help perceptions and 
>assumptions. I like the way you’ve said it. (H’m, I guess the film stars of 
>the last century can be linked to the myths and gods, the satyrs and nymphs 
>of long ago… but that’s another aside!). I guess we all have the right to 
>write history – we’ve just got to make it sound plausible.
>Bob
>
>
>
>>From: Philip Burton <[log in to unmask]>
>>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: new submission: Before the Storm(Bob)
>>Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:55:14 +0000
>>
>>Hi Bob, I have done this "educated language in the mouth of the peasant" 
>>before - in my poem 'With a Nod to Beachy Head' which was published in 
>>Poetry Nottinham International, # Winter 2001. I haven't analysed this 
>>till now, and I thank you for giving me the idea of doing so. As I mount 
>>this rationale it may need a lot more polishing, or a lot of kicking into 
>>touch, but here goes. Let us suppose that the speaker/historical voice is 
>>dead and has been spiritually elevated (in heaven/the poet's mind?)to have 
>>the education denied in life.
>>
>>On another plain it's a bit like Michael Caine choosing to retain his 
>>Cockney vowels on screen (to set a model for the poor lad to maybe 
>>follow)- but in reverse. It is a poor man saying, "This is what the poor 
>>are capable of when allowed the education and access to media" and sharing 
>>with us insights only available to the spirit after this oppressive world 
>>has done its worse.
>>
>>Do shoot this down, but this is as far as I've thought it through. I agree 
>>that Duffy's poem is delightful and is far more down to earth. My forays 
>>into history have been different in intent, not to enter into the mind of 
>>a character (which Modern History is always asking us to do) but rather to 
>>recover a mythic sense and spiritual insight from the terror and darknes 
>>of a lot of our ancestor's yesterdays.
>>Philip
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: Bob Cooper <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>Subject: Re: new submission: Before the Storm
>>>Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:05:29 +0000
>>>
>>>Hi Philip,
>>>You write "I try to give an unknown historical person a modern voice" - 
>>>and that notion intrigues me... Could the person speak a bit louder in 
>>>the poem? I mean help poor me as a reader get more of a feel for him.
>>>I mean there's that famous Carol Ann Duffy poem caled "Warming Her 
>>>Pearls" (which I'm sure must be somewhere on the web if you don't know 
>>>it) and I know it's a servant girl (and I can almost see her as well as 
>>>hear her) in the poem. I think Carol Ann was writing a simpler poem about 
>>>a simpler subject (if unrequited love is ever simple! - it's more than 
>>>likely a lot more complex than the poem, it's just that she's selected 
>>>the simplest image.)
>>>In your piece Nerids and Neptune show some kind of education (as does the 
>>>word hippocampus!) and I'm therefore wondering about the word "cottage" 
>>>because I guess a bloke who waxes lyrical about such classical things may 
>>>be assumed to have a bigger, more proseprous house than that! Maybe I 
>>>don't get a clear enough picture of the narrator...
>>>Anyway I'm meandering now...
>>>Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: Philip Burton <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>Subject: Re: new submission: Before the Storm
>>>>Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 22:38:48 +0000
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for persevering, Bob, it's a piece I cranked out for a Manifold 
>>>>competition. In a real way I love your approach to poetry, and you again 
>>>>hit the nail on the head. I'm over-ambitious. Here I try to give an 
>>>>unknown historical person a modern voice and all that happens is that I 
>>>>sink all into the bog (or 'moss' as we call them in Lancashire).
>>>>Philip.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: Bob Cooper <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>Subject: Re: new submission: Before the Storm
>>>>>Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 22:18:02 +0000
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Philip,
>>>>>I keep returning to this piece and trying to get into it... but, sadly, 
>>>>>I can't get a feel for what's going on at all.
>>>>>I like the rhythm (except I can't quite make the line "My grandfather 
>>>>>sits and cannot absorb." roll out of my mouth like the rest) but I find 
>>>>>I can still only read it as if it's something like that Chatterton lad 
>>>>>did: copy an old style and hope to get away with it.
>>>>>I know this isn't very helpful, but I'm giving up on it.
>>>>>Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: Philip Burton <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>Subject: new submission: Before the Storm
>>>>>>Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:40:00 +0000
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            Before the Storm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>a perfectly ordinary August 1588 storm sank a Spanish Armada whose 
>>>>>>seafarers were unversed in the rough ways of the North Atlantic. The 
>>>>>>same equinoctial tempest swept away all last traces of the Lancashire 
>>>>>>village of Singleton.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Nereids wept at Queen Mary’s death
>>>>>>and the Rossall coast was weal
>>>>>>but they shook their spurs at Elizabeth
>>>>>>and saltmarsh took the field.
>>>>>>                            No more
>>>>>>the springing spikes of barley, rye, and oat.
>>>>>>Neptune wets the wattle, sucks the daub -
>>>>>>our cottage swims like a breached boat.
>>>>>>My grandfather sits and cannot absorb.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Only Penny Stone Inn near Carlon -
>>>>>>the dozing megalith, her Colts Ring
>>>>>>and the hollow-eyed oaks of Singleton
>>>>>>stand proud.
>>>>>>                   I saw a kale wagon swing
>>>>>>like a galleass, sink under the mere,
>>>>>>drown father and son, and dogs beside.
>>>>>>And the good horse, breaking traces, reared
>>>>>>like a basking hippocampus, died.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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