Hi Arthur,
I suspect the phrase "beyond the pale" is the only residual use of the
original word "pale" in usage and the glyph "pale" doesn't work anymore
without the words "beyond the" in front of it to carry the meaning you
intend. It's a bit like the phrase "spik and span" where neither word exists
now to convey the meaning of "clean". (But I guess the machine that's called
a "piledriver" would originally have been called a "paledriver" and it would
be used for driving in pales - and not piles! Ouch!!).
I have a feeling that "vale" is a poeticsism that isn't found in speech -
and that makes two rhyme links that aren't cemented into the structure too
well.
I'd be tempted to get rid of the whole end-of-line-rhyme-sequence that
relies on the "ale" sound...
I also doubt if anyone would say "in comfort sleep" - I'd possibly say
"sleep comfortably" but would prefer a phrase like "are soundly asleep"
which isn't an inversion and keeps the "sleep" word at the end. (From terror
creep is another no-no way of saying things!)
I guess the trick with villanelles is to work with two rhyme-sounds that
have a variety of words (nouns, but verbs and descriptive adjectives/adverbs
will help to create run-on lines that may soften the impact of the poems
structural demands. "Keep" has possibilities of flowing into the next
line... so it's a canny word to (ahem) keep...
I've also been assidiously reading through all your other Castle poems - but
find some far easier to accept on contemporary terms than others.
I guess each generation discovers the strengths and weaknesses of particular
forms - and some forms have never caught on with more than, perhaps, their
inventor and a few of his or her cronies. I suspect that there's more than a
writer's skill that enables a form to sing clearly on a new day or for a new
generation. Luck, cultural accidents, education policies, may all play a
part...
I'm fascinated at the rise in popularity of the villanelle as a form in the
1990s (and its possible submergence again).
But I'm rambling now...
Bob
>From: arthur seeley <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: New Sub: Castle: The villanelle
>Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 09:58:56 -0000
>
>The pale is a protected enclosure, generally surrounded by a wooden fence
>made of pales or palings. Beyond the Pale is beyond the limits of civilised
>society, and originated in Ireland where the city of Dublin was surrounded
>by a wooden wall and beyond that was barbaric uncivilised folk. Or so they
>say.:
>
>"The government in Dublin castle put up fortifications, dug trenches, gave
>grounds towards the building of castles, appointed guards to hold the
>bridges and assigned watchmen to light warning beacons when danger
>threatened. The area around Dublin extended from Dundalk, inland to Naas,
>and south to Bray, and became known as the Pale. Apart from Carrickfergus
>castle, the province of Ulster was beyond the Pale."
>
>I'm glad you like the Villanelle form , Colin. It is the Everest of poetic
>forms so I understand. The difficulty lies in overcoming the potentially
>boring repeats of lines. The best is Dylan's " Do not go gentle into that
>Goodnight" and probably one of the best poems of the last 100 years.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Colin dewar" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 9:11 AM
>Subject: Re: New Sub: Castle: The villanelle
>
>
> > Arthur,
> >
> > One benefit of being in contact with this list is that I can hear lots
>of
> > cool-sounding phrases (and the insight that comes with them). egg Israel
>and
> > Palestine are like Siamese twins, mutually dependent but contributing to
> > each others' suffering. egg the truly novel idea requires a truly novel
> > metaphor to bring it into the waking world and a dozen others. Anyway
>about
> > the Villanelle: "this form is prone to a jarring effect which you have
> > offset nicely with enjambment". Heard that somewhere before? Makes me
>sound
> > like I know what I'm talking about.......Next time somebody is swearing
>at
> > me I can bring it out by way of riposte.
> >
> > Anyway, to come to your poem my least favourite line is L2 of S1 because
>I'm
> > not sure what a "sheltered pale" is.
> >
> > My favourite lines are L2 of S5 (I like muscled fells) and 2 of 6 as I
>like
> > the association between extreme weather and battle.
> >
> >
> > BW
> >
> >
> > Colin
> >
> > Anyway, to come to your
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "arthur seeley" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 10:55 AM
> > Subject: New Sub: Castle: The villanelle
> >
> >
> > > The Castle: The Villanelle
> > >
> > >
> > > Though centuries have levelled tower and keep
> > > the walls can still define the sheltered pale.
> > > Where market, town and patterned meadows sweep
> > >
> > > the castle guarded clouds of drifting sheep
> > > that helped the town to prosper in its narrow vale
> > > though centuries have levelled tower and keep
> > >
> > > that thwarted envy and allowed the folk to reap
> > > and sell their harvest, labour to avail
> > > where market, town and patterned meadows sweep.
> > >
> > > Children of the builders in comfort sleep,
> > > the solace of its grey walls still prevails
> > > though centuries have levelled tower and keep
> > >
> > > and tourists come to view the noble heap
> > > snug in the muscled fells and rolling dale
> > > where market, town and patterned meadows sweep
> > >
> > > No longer need the folk from terror creep
> > > for only winter wars and gales assail
> > > the market, town and patterned meadow-sweep
> > > and centuries have levelled tower and keep.
> > >
> > >
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